Episode 26
· 01:03:06
The industry is in a tough place. It feels like it's in a transitionary period. It feels like it can either explode triumphantly into the future, or it feels like it can fall away because the the cost of entry is really, really high. You know, my job certainly right now is to continue to find value for people, and and I think a lot of us are are doing that. I think most of us are doing that because there's a handful of luxury places in the city that that can do well.
Jeffrey Roel:But, you know, you sit down with a a Bordeaux house and and their second wine okay, not to call out names, but I did a a first growth lunch recently, and their second wine is the cost of a first growth, first label just a couple years ago. They were asking for over a thousand dollars a bottle. Where does that fit in in this landscape right now? Who's buying that?
Alex Abbott Boyd:Well, Jeff, thank you so much for being here. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. You've worked over the last five years in a range of spots from multiple Michelin starred restaurants to still premium but more casual spots around Toronto. Yeah.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Looking back over the last five years, what are some of the things you think have changed most in the way people are drinking?
Jeffrey Roel:I don't know that people have adjusted the way that they drink. I know that there's there's a lot of conversation right now about people drinking less. I don't actually see that trend. I think that maybe cocktails have taken a a stronger position in the lead, but that also feels maybe more that feels like it it it's more of the younger generation that are going that way. And and I do think that cocktails are maybe more immediately understandable.
Jeffrey Roel:There's more intense flavors. There's textures. There's a lot of things for people to grasp onto. Where wine, there's still a a ton of gatekeeping around it. I I think I'm still selling a lot of the same things.
Jeffrey Roel:Maybe it's a a second wine from a top house or something like that, but all the things that I've loved over the years are still the things that I get to sell. And maybe that's just because I have strong personality, that I have a strong sense of salesmanship, but the biggest thing that I'll say is that the spend hasn't changed. So it means that maybe the quality is dropping or the entry point is dropping.
Alex Abbott Boyd:How so if the spend hasn't changed? Are people buying more cheaper bottles?
Jeffrey Roel:People are spending the same amount of money in the restaurant space or the spaces that I'm in, but the what they get for that dollar point is is lower.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. Because wine prices keep going up and up and up.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah. I mean, a few years ago, it it was so great to transition people from a great bottle of Barolo to a great bottle of Inferno Reserva from Valtellina. Well, now the price of that looks the same as the price of the Burolo, so we're walking them into Valtellina Superiore. Yeah. You know?
Jeffrey Roel:And or Langhe Nebbiolo. And even the the price point on something like Langhe Nebbiolo has gotten so high, you're going, what are the next versions of this wine that we can lead people into? If somebody was spending a $150 in a restaurant five years ago, they're still spending a $150. They're just not getting the cocktail, the app, the main, the wine, the dessert.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. What about stylistically? Have you noticed any shifts from some styles that were super popular a few years ago that are maybe waning, other ones that are gaining steam?
Jeffrey Roel:It also possibly has to do with the places that I've been. I haven't sold a bottle of Amarone in a couple of years, which I'm okay with. I do like Amarone, but its place with oysters that was very common several years ago seems to have waned. And I do think in general, a lot of those riper, richer, more powerful styles have pulled back. But part of that could be the absence of California on the market As people are looking for secondary or tertiary wines to to fit that mark, they're they're not finding exactly what they're looking for, so they start to look at different models.
Jeffrey Roel:I would say that, you know, wines like Brunello, which were always popular, are definitely usurping that position. So people are asking for more texture, and that opens up the possibilities quite a bit.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And something I keep hearing is that you would think maybe Argentina or Australia or Spain take the space that was California, but I'm just hearing more and more it's Italy, which there's it's quite a jump in style.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah. But I I think the the more I talk to people who are in that position, there's something some particular thing that they really enjoy in California that that just doesn't hit somewhere else. And to be frank, often I think it is a little bit of extra sugar that that we're not accounting for, a little bit of extra sweetness. Even that that over ripeness, that slightly caramelly raisinated quality that maybe other places in the world, they tend to leave it out. They're looking for an excessive ripeness, but not an excess of raisination and sweetness.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Then why do you think Italy is gaining the ground there? Because that's not what, say, Brunello is known for.
Jeffrey Roel:No. I I think there's there's a a shifting. There's a shifting in taste, and people are looking at different styles that they recall, that they knew that they were drinking years ago, that that were usurped by by this great big apothec and and bread and butter and all of these things, but now they're going back and and remembering, oh, I really like this wine, you know, several years ago. I really like that bottle of Brunello I had back in 2010 or whatever the case may be. And the fact is, I don't think there's been a better time to drink Italian wines than there is now, especially with the trio of vintages kind of across Italy, nineteen twenty twenty one.
Jeffrey Roel:All of those wines right now stand up, and that's an important factor.
Alex Abbott Boyd:You mentioned gatekeeping Mhmm. In the wine industry still. What what did you mean by compared to cocktails, there's gatekeeping in wine?
Jeffrey Roel:You know, when you talk to somebody who wants to build you a great cocktail, they wanna learn everything that you're trying to drink in a glass and make the best version of that. I think in a lot of times when you're talking to a wine person, they wanna put what they really like in front of you and convince you it's the best thing out there, but then also keep these surprises for themselves. There's it's it's a long journey to
Alex Abbott Boyd:get into is that? Because every single som who's been on my podcast has said this. Yeah. Do do you really think there are a lot of wine professionals out there that are trying to push their own preferences onto guests more so than listening?
Jeffrey Roel:I think there's there's two sides to that question. One is there's a lot of spaces that aren't willing to hire soms. There's a lot of spaces that aren't willing to to spend that money. They don't see the return on investment. At least it's not spelt out to them.
Jeffrey Roel:And so a lot of the great psalms end up leaving the industry going into adjacent fields, end up working as wine agents, or or areas where they can actually extol the virtues of great wine and get paid for it, because that's such an important factor. So many of of the great songs that I came up with definitely left the industry post COVID or or during COVID. But, ultimately, when you think about people who are going and and pursuing their their different accreditations, there's not a clear pathway for them when they come back as an advanced somm or definitely not as a master somm. So you're not seeing them in in those prime roles. A lot of the people who are coming up right now I mean, it's it's just the nature of a young somm.
Jeffrey Roel:They get excited about a lot of things, and those are the things they wanna showcase, forgetting about the fact that familiarity is comfort. Forgetting about the fact that somebody who says they wanna drink sans serre doesn't wanna be walked down to Languedoc and and Peak Pool or or Roy or Quincy. They wanna drink what they wanna drink, and your job often as a somm is to put that thing in front of them and say, yes. That was the right choice. Because it is.
Jeffrey Roel:Right?
Alex Abbott Boyd:So where does it leave the industry now?
Jeffrey Roel:The industry is in a tough place. It feels like it's in a transitionary period. It feels like it can either explode triumphantly into the future or it feels like it can fall away because the the cost of entry is really, really high. You know, my job certainly right now is to continue to find value for people, and and I think a lot of us are are doing that. I think most of us are doing that because there's a handful of luxury places in the city that that can do well.
Jeffrey Roel:But, you know, you sit down with a a Bordeaux house and and their second wine. Okay. Not to call out names, but I did a a first growth lunch recently, and their second wine is the cost of a first growth, first label just a couple years ago. They were asking for over $1,000 a bottle. Where does that fit in in this landscape right now?
Jeffrey Roel:Who's buying that? Does it go on?
Alex Abbott Boyd:My portfolio is so different now than it was a year and a half ago. A year and a half ago, I had $200 Australian Tasmanian sparkling wines. Right. And now everything is like 40 and under because that's
Jeffrey Roel:That's what people are responding to right now. That's what people are buying. But it it's not necessarily just on the wine industry. It's not because wine has gotten more expensive that people are buying less expensive wine. It's because everything has.
Jeffrey Roel:It's because every little piece inside the restaurant if an appetizer was $15 two years ago, it's $30 now, and that's the reality of the business. Nobody's being egregious or or trying to profiteer, or profit maxing maybe is the is the new term for that Off of the changes to the industry, it's just that logistics have gotten more expensive. The the through line for everything, all of the DOP products, all of the AOC products, everything has gotten infinitely more expensive over the last couple of years.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Well, even just beyond the wine, like so in your current role at Henry's Restaurant, you are the GM. So I'm imagining you're seeing a more holistic view of what it's taking to run a restaurant.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah. Of course. You know, the the great thing about looking at all the costs is the one that's the most static is wine and alcohol. Those are things that that feel controllable. Those are the areas where where we can say, well, we know what our our cost of goods are.
Jeffrey Roel:We know what our percentages are, and we can work with those really, really easily. But a lot of the suppliers, a lot of the the meat products, cheeses, whatever, I mean, we have these bouncing tariffs coming from The US. We have just unsteady supply of everything. And one day, you're paying, you know, $5 a pound for something, and the next day, it's 15. But we don't have the luxury of of changing the price on the menu day to day by day based
Alex Abbott Boyd:on can't just triple an entree's price.
Jeffrey Roel:You can't. You can't. No. Unfortunately not. I mean, fortunately, everybody likes it.
Jeffrey Roel:Everybody likes to feel grounded in in what's there, and and the menu looking the same week over week is a valuable thing.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Of course. What was it like going from pure wine buying roles into more of
Jeffrey Roel:a a GM role? You know, when you're just buying wine, it's interesting. It's fun, of course. Choosing the wines for a list is is certainly one of the great joys that I have. Tasting with agents and so on, I mean, it's all very fun, but I'm a big proponent for hospitality.
Jeffrey Roel:That's what drives me in the industry. That's why I'm still here. It's because I like to make people have a good time in surprising ways. And in the positions I was in, I wasn't as readily able to do that because my job was just wine. And an immensely valuable thing to the spaces that I was in, but I wanted to have a little bit more say about the shape of the dining experience, about how we were approaching, about where we could take a pause, where we could go a bit faster, and I didn't have that opportunity.
Jeffrey Roel:I think sometimes when you're in more fine dining environments, the experience can be very foreign, very staccato. You have all these elements of service being drilled on top of you without a sense of hospitality because there's so many steps of service. And I really enjoy the moment where that all drifts away and you're just in this genuine moment of of talking to somebody about things that you really like, about the food that they're eating, about the experience that they're having, because those are the things that are memorable. Your fork being put on the right every single time probably isn't that memorable. Or if it is, it's memorable in a bad way.
Jeffrey Roel:It was this weird alienating thing where they kept taking my fork and moving it to the wrong place. So I wanted to to have a little bit more involvement in shaping those elements of service.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I realized I didn't ask what is Henry's. Could you share it a little bit about what is the food like? What is the wine program?
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah. I mean, Henry's is is four years old now, and my understanding is it's been through a lot of different versions of itself. But today, its identity is is a neighborhood spot. It's a spot that can give many different versions of itself to the people who are in that neighborhood because it it is a coffee shop. It is a wine shop.
Jeffrey Roel:Then it's a wine bar and restaurant. We do brunch on the weekend. We do a really casual prefix on Tuesdays. The idea is it it's a place that should feel really comfortable. It has an evolution of wine program, has a really great cocktail program.
Jeffrey Roel:Chef Camilo and and the team in the kitchen are incredible. The quality of food, I think, even in the eight months that I've been there, has never been better.
Alex Abbott Boyd:How would you describe the food?
Jeffrey Roel:It's comforting. It's international. There are dishes that are familiar, but there's definitely a unique Brazilian or South American influence there. Chef is from Brazil. There's spices.
Jeffrey Roel:There's richness. There's depth of flavor. It takes really familiar things and just slightly alters them in the kitchen. The technique is is really, really great. I mean, the the quality of the sauces, the the depth of flavor, and so on.
Jeffrey Roel:We make all of our stocks in house. We make all of our breads in house, all of our our pastas in house. So the quality of ingredients, that homemade texture
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah.
Jeffrey Roel:And then the richness and the layering that comes in on top of it creates something really, really complex. And even though it's familiar, I think it's it's got a unique identity in the city.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Okay. And then tell me about the wine program. Yeah. So Because the owner, Ben, also is an importing agent. So it must be an interesting new challenge where you're balancing wines from that agency, which are great, and then wines to then fully have a complete program.
Jeffrey Roel:I mean, and no. The wines that Ben has always been attracted to are really good, really classic wines. A lot of highly, highly regarded producers in there. Lucienne Crochet is in there. Pascal Cotat is in there.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Oh, I I've told many people and done it myself, like, Wednesday at Henry's. Yeah. Go go for half price burgundy, like, or you're gonna have a great time.
Jeffrey Roel:Sure. I mean, price everything is is is a great thing. When you wanna go into Ladoir or Montagny and you're just unfamiliar, that's a great time to do it when the cost of entry is is cut in half, literally cleaved in two. But, you know, like any wine program, you're always looking for the gap. You're always looking to satisfy as many palates as you can, give people value on one hand, you know, the these top celebration bottles on the other hand, and everything in between.
Jeffrey Roel:Do I have the right champagne? Am I covering all the categories that that I think should be covered? Do I have a Blanc de Blanc and a Blanc de Noir? Do I have something that's oak aged and something that's, you know, way more austere and and mineral? And that that follows any category.
Jeffrey Roel:The really great thing about that program is is I have wines at at two ends of the spectrum by the glass. I have a $15 glass bar every single day, both white and red, the wine of the day. And they're cheerful wines, but I don't consider them cheap. Right now, I I'm pouring a Malgusia from drama Greece. I think it's really interesting, and it satisfies the palette that's looking for something like a really expressive New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc.
Jeffrey Roel:It's aromatic. It's perfumed. It's ripe. We're not sacrificing anything by putting a wine at that price point. Then the other side is where I get to play even more is I've got something in and around the $30 mark, which is the sommelier pick.
Jeffrey Roel:So there, you know, in white, I'm pouring a wine from a thousand year old monastery, the Coenobium wine, which is a blend of Verdicchio, Trebbiano, Malvisia, volcanic soils. I mean, hyper expressive in mineral.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Where is that from?
Jeffrey Roel:Lazio Lazio, Italy. Yeah. And and it's really fun, but that's just probably until the end of the day. Tomorrow, I'll have something new in that spot.
Alex Abbott Boyd:How how do you make that work from just, a cost of goods perspective?
Jeffrey Roel:I'm always looking for value. Yeah. Always. And, you know, the great thing is I've been doing wine for, well, nine years in the city. I've seen so many great wines.
Jeffrey Roel:And in other buying positions I've been in, I've had to say, I'm sorry. It's too cheap. Which is to say it it the the wine would end up not expensive enough on on the menu. It would pull down everything else or make everything else look too expensive when you're putting a $45 bottle price in a list whose entry point is $70 as an example.
Alex Abbott Boyd:You couldn't just raise the price?
Jeffrey Roel:But that doesn't feel fair. Yeah. Doesn't feel fair. I don't believe in gouging people just because something's cheaper. I mean, there's there's fair margins and there's not.
Jeffrey Roel:I've I've always believed in a sliding scale as well. When you go up, that price should come down, that you don't you don't take margins to the bank. You don't take percentages to the bank. You take real dollars every single time. So I'm not sacrificing anything, looking at at wines that are cheaper.
Jeffrey Roel:And in fact, if anything, I'm finding more discoveries for myself, for my guests, for the people around me because they are wines that I've had to, in the past, say no to. I I always loved Peak Pool, when you have the option to list Peak Pool or Saint Cyre or Chablis, well, those other two are gonna be more expensive wines, and and that always looks good to the person you're buying for at the end of the day. But now I can put Peak Pool as that $15 glass pour, and it's a discovery for people, it's super delicious, it's fresh, and and I feel really good about the quality. And the price point doesn't bother me.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And then what about the Saum Picks? How do you how do you think about cogs there?
Jeffrey Roel:I mean, in the same way. They're the margins are a little smaller for sure. But, again, it's a more expensive wine to begin with. And I'm hunting for things that I think are really special that that people will will respond to. That's where I get to to find really unique appellations with people who are doing really, really great work.
Jeffrey Roel:I've been pouring La Bruja from from, Command O G or Command O J from Sierra De Grados.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I remember buying that in New York for $25, though. It's sad that, yeah, that's now the somn pick price.
Jeffrey Roel:But that has to do with the fact that, you know, they're in such a high altitude place. This vintage that we're pouring 2024, they had so much frost, they're not able to make a single parcel wine in that place this year. They're not able to make a single village wine. They have to pick everything from the whole region and say, okay. This is this is what's going into that wine.
Jeffrey Roel:It's the risk that comes with with planting Grenache at high altitudes for sure. But okay. You've heard of Sierra De Greatos, but I guarantee you 90% of the people who are walking into my space haven't. So, again, it's a it's a place to play, but I'm not telling people they have to buy that wine. Right?
Jeffrey Roel:It's just an option. And then there's everything in between. There's even a bit of white burgundy that's more expensive. There's a a Brunello by the glass that's more expensive, which is really delicious.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And how how do things break out? Like, is it mostly people are taking up that $15 wine? Are you is it $50.50 with that and the the higher end ones?
Jeffrey Roel:I mean, the fact is when we break down the the glass sales, we're looking at an average of twenty to twenty four dollars a glass. So people are responding in both ways. There's there's different markets too, right, that are walking in. Some people just want something that's really accessible and they don't wanna think about it and and that's really great. I already have that.
Jeffrey Roel:And some people wanna spend more time, be more thoughtful. So when they get a glass of timoraso, they get really excited by it, and they wanna spend the money on that because it's so unique and and and so delicious as well. And they do think about it.
Alex Abbott Boyd:What are some of some of your biggest surprises?
Jeffrey Roel:Not completely a surprise, but but people responded really well when I brought, Sinomavro on, Timiopalus. And I'm not surprised because I went to the property in Greece, and I fell in love with the wine myself, but I didn't think that the that the response from my guests would be so good. But I picked up 24 bottles one week and and sold them all within the week, and that was that was quite the shock. Yeah. You know, it's it's Do you think
Alex Abbott Boyd:it it's down to you having been there and conveying that story and that experience to them? You think if if you put it on the list but weren't in the restaurant yourself, you would have sold the 24 bottles?
Jeffrey Roel:I wasn't the one doing all the selling. My staff were. I think people get excited about things that are unfamiliar too. And when the price is good and and the access point is really easy, and when you give people sometimes the right words to sell what they're selling, I mean, the the easy way to talk about that wine is is it's sort of like poor man's Barolo. And people are like, okay.
Jeffrey Roel:I know what that means. I know what that is. I know what that looks like and how it tastes. And then when it does, when it does deliver on those things that that people are asking of it, I think that's even more even more surprising. Not not surprising, but but there's no letdown with it.
Jeffrey Roel:When the quality is really good, and and again, that's something that I go looking for, people respond really well. Yeah. To those things.
Alex Abbott Boyd:It's an interesting way to I might say this is Greece's answer to Nebbiolo rather than saying it's the poor Mansperola.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah. You know, Greece doesn't have an answer to anything that's being produced in the rest of the world. They have their own unique grapes that they're finally learning to work with in the best possible way. But like anything, you can deal with aromatics. You can deal with textures.
Jeffrey Roel:This idea that Sinnoh Mavro is sort of a cross between Pinot Noir and Nebbiolo that you get some of those firm tannins, you get some of the savoriness. Yeah. On the one hand, it's it's an idea that makes sense. But when you actually explore the grape, there's such a unique element there. And and I think this savory tomato quality comes through in in a distinct way that even pulls it out of a fruity quality.
Jeffrey Roel:Maybe tomato is a fruit. I don't know. I haven't kept up with that.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I think last I checked, it might be.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. It's a but it's tomato fruit. It doesn't fit in our classic red fruit diaspora, cherries and strawberries.
Jeffrey Roel:Is there anything else that you've done at Henry's in this GM role where you
Alex Abbott Boyd:can have a more holistic approach to hospitality?
Jeffrey Roel:I mean, you know, I get I get to shape the the the culture of the space, and and there was definitely a bit of leadership missing in the space, which is why I was hired. But ultimately, it's the shape of service. It's the way that, one, we have these really important SOPs, practices, steps of service, but the other is is that I've trained people or or I've helped them to understand that they just they're just guide rails. They're just they just keep us on track, but the it's all the gray areas. It's all these sort of unknowns that that make the industry really exciting that you can have fun with.
Jeffrey Roel:And and I think people have responded really well to it. I've brought in, of course, wine training and food training and things like that that allow them to just spend a little bit more time thinking about what the entire experience looks like. And I've asked people to start thinking about the words that they use, about the descriptors. There's a a fun thought exercise where you have to describe a strawberry, never but use the word strawberry. And and when you start thinking that way about everything, I think it unlocks a lot of fun descriptions, but it really challenges you to to change the way that that to stop being a robot space, you know?
Jeffrey Roel:It's just fun. It's just fun. I was sitting with my partner recently, and and I was asking her, like, what does milk taste like? And how is milk different from cream and cream different from cheese? And we threw it into ChatGPT, and over and over, it was just like, cream is like milk.
Jeffrey Roel:Milk is like cream. Cream is like cheese. I just think it's it's important to sit with those distinctions because, you know, there are so many white wines that go through malolactic conversion. But what's the quality of the milk there? Does it go into sour cream territory?
Jeffrey Roel:Is it is it like really, really fresh milk? Is it churned butter? Even butter, I mean, as a term. Is it like roasting in the sun? Is it caramelizing in the oven?
Jeffrey Roel:Or is it just freshly churned? All of those things are are unique and distinct. When you hook onto those things, think you get to a a closer place of being able to analyze but also describe food and wine.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Speaking of food and wine, if someone wants to come to Henry's for the first time, when should they come? What should they order?
Jeffrey Roel:I think Tuesday has always been a fun entry point for people because it is a more casual experience. There's a prefects experience where you're choosing a protein and everything's sort of built around it already, and we're already delivering it with some of our favorite elements. So some of the work of going through the menu is is already done, but there's there's a lot of standouts in the menu. Any day of the week, you're gonna have a good time, and definitely Wednesday is also for half price bottles. I mean, it's almost a no brainer.
Jeffrey Roel:But how you order is is really it it's so personal. There's things that I really love, like the beef tartare and and the shrimp toast, and the shrimp toast has been a staple since day one. There's other things that that everybody seems to gravitate towards, like a pasta with pistachio pesto and basil and burrata. Just flavors that work so well together. I think the the the best way the way that I have the most fun and and in turn, I think my guests have the most fun is when they start thinking about the dishes, but they start asking which wines should we go through because we can pour multiple wines over the course of of that experience in half glasses, in full glasses, by the bottle, whatever the case may be.
Jeffrey Roel:But that's the that's just the most fun to me in in any restaurant environment is it can it all come together in a way or or were they sort of built as little islands? Here's the cocktail space. Here's the wine space, and here's the food space. Hopefully, I've done my job, it it's all coming together in in a way that that helps to build on that identity of Henry's. You're actively pursuing the Master Somme certification.
Jeffrey Roel:After getting your advanced, what is keeping you motivated to keep pushing? You're gonna laugh about it, boredom was was the first driver. When I finished the the advanced exam and I came back with the pin, I came back with a huge sense of relief, with a small sense of accomplishment. I think that that sense took a little time to grow
Alex Abbott Boyd:because I got certified before you did, and now you're ahead of me. You're you're not slacking.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah. But but it was it was sort of like, you know, this pin is just so small, and to represent all of the work that went into it and and so on, it it felt a little bit empty coming back from that and being like, okay. What's next? And I sat with it for a couple of months, and and what I was realizing was because I wasn't studying anymore. I was like, I'm done.
Jeffrey Roel:This is what I always set out to do was to become an advanced sommelier when I started those studies, and that was it. But now I was at home with excess free time. I wasn't studying. I I didn't I didn't feel that motivation to to keep on it, or rather I had considered myself to be done. And I was like, but the wine world didn't stop.
Jeffrey Roel:They're not you know, they're still making Appalachians. They're still planning vineyards, all these things. So I still wanna be in that realm. So the next logical step was start studying for for master sommelier theory and see what that looks like because it is different from it's different from studying for certified. It's different from studying for advanced.
Jeffrey Roel:How so? It's the the level of depth. And and we go to the level that we all wanna go in the places that we're studying, but the fact is no stone should be left unturned when when you're going down this this MS theory route. But you couldn't do it without the stepping stones of certified to advance to to now studying for for MS. I I tend to think about knowledge in in a way that that knowledge comes in spheres.
Jeffrey Roel:It it has to match your worldview. So when you start studying, you you can't put all that really, really esoteric information in your head first. It just doesn't make sense. You have to think about the place, where it is in the world, and, you know, the type of climate, kind of generalized information.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And context. Right?
Jeffrey Roel:And and context. But once all that stuff sits, then all of a sudden you get to unlock the next sphere where things just start to make sense inside of that because you've got the underlying information. And so you go deeper and deeper and deeper, and now this is gonna be the deepest that I go for now, and then maybe after I mean, who knows if I'll ever get that that MS pin, but at some point, I'm sure that I'll specialize. And and in a lot of ways, already have. There are places where I feel a lot more comfortable talking about wine or cocktails or whatever the case may be that other people don't, but then they come in and they're like, but this is the area that I feel really confident in.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I heard one really cool study technique that you told me once where it's like, rather than try to memorize the residual grams of sugar for every French wine appellation, figure out, okay, it is like three quarters of them, three grams? And then memorize where is it different. Yeah. Rather than say, go every single one and then try to memorize it independently. Are there any other little tricks like that that you developed?
Alex Abbott Boyd:Because that also is putting things in context.
Jeffrey Roel:It is. I I mean, I I think this is it. This this this is the most important thing about about getting even even at the advanced level is is there's a lot of context to it. And when you understand the context, a lot of things fit in place. You might not know the word for the volcanic soil in Sicily, but if you know a lot of volcanic regions, you understand how it affects the the winemaking, how it affects the vines, how it affects the, you know, the the water stress and things like that.
Jeffrey Roel:We we can follow the through line and everything and then examine the outliers rather than taking the outliers as the drivers to to a region.
Alex Abbott Boyd:What are some of those regions that you love to study?
Jeffrey Roel:My family's from Spain, so I've always had a passion for for looking at Spanish wines. What part of Spain? They're from Galicia, from the Northwest, to a lot of Alberino in the in that part of the world. But one of the first places that I went when I decided to travel alone was to Spain, and I drove from Barcelona up to Bilbao, west to Galicia, south to Lisbon, across to Madrid and Cuenca, back to I was in Valencia then to Priyarat. So each time stopping in distinct winemaking regions.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And so I mean, the wines of, like, Galicia to Priyarat. What a jump.
Jeffrey Roel:Completely different. Definitely. But saturating yourself in in any place is is really one of the best ways to understand a place. When you're looking at the aspect of Alvaro Palacios' vineyard, it makes sense. When you're reading about it and somebody says, oh, 70% gradient, you sort of have an idea maybe what that's like.
Jeffrey Roel:But when you actually see it and you're actually feeling the the Spanish sun overhead and and, you know, looking at the shape of the buildings and and meandering along the roads that that wrap themselves around pre rite. There's things that click that don't when when you're just reading books, and you're just I mean, we have a lot of great technology that that can take us a lot closer to places that we wanna be, but the the live experience is just unparalleled. So, yeah, I've I've felt good in the past and and currently extrapolating information about Spain better than I think other people who write it off as a cheap QPR place, which is fair. A lot of it is. What is QPR?
Jeffrey Roel:A quality price ratio. Yeah. A lot of really undervalued wines, and and they're they're playing catch up with themselves. Definitely. But so that's the I mean, that whole country is is a place I feel it's not true.
Jeffrey Roel:I don't feel good about the the South Of Of Spain. It's still an area that that I need to spend a lot more time exploring, especially Andalusia and Extremadura and Sherry Heraz. But but I've always felt confident there. I like Bordeaux a lot more than many other Psalms that I've met. I've always loved Bordeaux.
Jeffrey Roel:It's one of the the first wines that I I started collecting and drinking, and one of the first great loves that I had was probably a 2006 Le Havill Poiferet that just opened my mind and widened my eyes to what a wine can taste like thirty minutes, forty minutes, an hour, an hour and a half, two hours after you open it, and how much depth and joy that offers. Chateauneuf Du Pape was another great love of mine, and I've been and touched the soils and those big pudding stones and everything else.
Alex Abbott Boyd:It sounds like travel has really been key for taking the theory and making it kind of fall into place.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah. It definitely it's definitely a big aspect of of understanding, and I recommend anybody who's studying wine to go to a wine region. Because you can wax poetical about values and and winemaking philosophies and so on, but there's so many aspects of winemaking that are practical. And it it really sinks in when you can see why a vineyard might be spaced the way it is because the rocks are the way that they are. It just it just makes sense.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Oh, a 100. The I mean, you mentioned Valtellina Inferno. Like, I went there in winter but took off my jacket in that vineyard. It's actually the warmest spot in the valley. Yeah, just stuff like that I'll never forget.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Studying, there's a lot of sacrifice. You have to push out any other projects, hobbies, interests. What do you think makes it worth it for you?
Jeffrey Roel:Nothing. No. That's I I enjoy it. I enjoy it at the end of the day. I I gravitate towards knowledge.
Jeffrey Roel:I've always been you know, I've always really enjoyed studying history. I've always really enjoyed studying geography, people, culture, places. I speak multiple languages. All of that stuff sort of fits in the world of wine. If I wasn't learning about wine, I'd be learning about something else.
Jeffrey Roel:So that's a unique part of the motivation. The other side of it is you make time for something. I mean, this is part of my career, so I make a point to get up in the morning. On an ideal day at 8AM, I get up. I do two to three hours of study, have breakfast, maybe one more hour of study before I go to work.
Jeffrey Roel:But then I go to work and I sell wine. So it all fits in the same realm of knowledge and experience. And again, you know, to go back to the idea of volcanic soils, if I'm studying Lanzarote, Tenderife, the Canary Islands, it still makes me a better salesman for Sicily and Mount Etna, because the qualities that hold true that make really great wine there also make really great wine in in Sicily. One just bleeds into the other in in in an important way. Everything is connected.
Alex Abbott Boyd:What has been the biggest benefit that you think you've gotten through pursuing CMS certifications? The biggest benefit?
Jeffrey Roel:I think it's opened the door to travel. The first thing that happened when I came back from from the advanced course was I got to go to Greece and meet all the winemakers of Greece.
Alex Abbott Boyd:One of the strictly they invited all the advanced songs?
Jeffrey Roel:No. No. No. No. It was a a friend of mine, you know, put put me forward as a as a candidate for that.
Jeffrey Roel:But, you know, one of the factors of that is from the Greek winemaker side is they really wanna talk to people with that level of knowledge that are in a position to sell those wines because we're going with a level of understanding that already enhances the experience of sitting with those wines. Yeah. Where we can get into a more complex, more detailed conversation, we can talk about the future and what they're hoping to achieve. Where somebody with, you know, no knowledge of winemaking, no knowledge of international or Greek varieties, really, they don't have the context for those types of conversations. Winemakers and estates receive thousands of visitors, some places hundreds of thousands of visitors, but I've found many times that they they come to life.
Jeffrey Roel:They they get excited when they realize you share this level of expertise. And it's not the level of expertise of of a winemaker. It's just we have this shared enterprise where we both come at it with a little bit of extra knowledge, and we can get into more complex information and share that stuff. The stuff that, you know, they've spent their life learning, that we've spent our lives learning, and nobody really cares about. I mean, there's there's never gonna be a time where I stand at a table and talk about levels of malolactic conversion.
Jeffrey Roel:Might tell my staff whose eyes will glaze over and and they'll be thinking about what they're gonna do at the end of the night. But but don't we get really excited about techniques and and training methods and things like that that would just bore the average person? So that's been really fun in in visiting places is is it's like we we share this little secret with with those people that they don't get to share with many people.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Oh, a 100%. I even my wife won't go she doesn't wanna go visit a vineyard anymore unless it's like a work trip because she doesn't want just the generic spiel that they give to a tourist. She
Jeffrey Roel:wants Yeah, right.
Alex Abbott Boyd:She wants to go deep and spend time with them and find out what what's really going on.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah. Totally. I mean, that's what's fun. That's what's interesting.
Alex Abbott Boyd:What do you think it will mean to you if one day you do pass?
Jeffrey Roel:It's so hard. It's so hard because the chances are really slim. I mean it does take an extraordinary amount of sacrifice and dedication and so on. And for every ideal day that looks like me getting up at 8AM and doing three-four hours of study, there's the other day where I wake up hungover, don't do any study, don't eat anything, go to work, try to forget that I exist, and then go home. It's not easy.
Jeffrey Roel:It's not easy putting yourself in a position to try and attain that knowledge, and if the the mastery rule holds firm of ten thousand hours, not sure where I am in in that that ten thousand hours yet, but what'll it mean? I don't know. I I can't say until I'm at least a little bit closer, you know? Maybe if I possibly pass the theory exam that opens up the other portions of the exam, then it'll feel a bit more real. But right now, it's just me trying to understand everything that I possibly can about wine in a
Alex Abbott Boyd:controlled way. You've already made it farther than what, ninety five percent of people pursuing CMS? 99? I don't know.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah. I would think so. There's, you know, the pass rate for the people who do do it sits around twenty percent for the advanced exam. But but I was trying to find some numbers, and there's somewhere around 900 to a thousand advanced sommeliers in North And South America together. So within the Quartermaster Sommeliers America, which in the grand scheme of all the people that are working in the industry is is not a big number.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Is it relatedly, last year, you won the Caps Cup? Yeah. What motivated you to to sign up?
Jeffrey Roel:Look. It's it's just a fun competition. It's it's super friendly, but competition in general is just a different way of thinking about the things that that we're already thinking about. It's a way to challenge yourself. It's a way to ask different questions.
Jeffrey Roel:And so the format for that was, I believe we had five wines in front of us that were blinds. We didn't know anything about them, where they were from, what the variety was. Naturally, we could tell white or red by color, but beyond that, there was some deductive reasoning involved. But then it was a series of maybe 25 questions where the answer is inferred by the style of wine.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Oh, and so you didn't have to guess, oh, this is a Gamay. You had to more?
Jeffrey Roel:You had to infer that it was Gamay by the answer you wanted to give to the question. Right? There was and and there was a Gamay there. There was a Beaujolais, and it was a cloudier production. Mean, if
Alex Abbott Boyd:That's one of my ones. That was my Is it my Beaujolais.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah. Okay. So slightly cloudy, slightly lifted fruit textures. I'm sure there was a tiny bit of carbonic on that wine, you know, all the things that put you in that category. But, also, if you don't recognize those elements right away, what else is lending to that cloudy quality?
Jeffrey Roel:What else is lending to the lifted fruit? I think there was a little bit of of of, like, VA lift on that wine as well. And so you could take it to many different places. If you're not in the classic spectrum as well, I mean, there's a ton of young Rioja that goes through carbonic maceration that you could easily walk over to there, unfiltered. You know?
Jeffrey Roel:I I think there's good reason to think that that could be Cabernet Franc from Loire Valley as well. But I I think I had a pretty good line on on those wines. I think all but one of them, I knew exactly what it was. And so the questions almost felt like the most obvious answer was the right answer. But it was just fun.
Jeffrey Roel:It was just fun at the end of the day. It's just a way to think about some cool wines and to to taste some wines in a way that that we don't always do it. And Would you recommend other soms sign up?
Alex Abbott Boyd:Should they be scared, well, what if you what if
Jeffrey Roel:It I don't get them doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Right? The point the point is, like any form of competition, is it's to challenge yourself. I mean, at the end of the day, I I I got to take home a case of of Gianluca de Loro's wine from delicious Chardonnay, but I wasn't, like, raising that up triumphantly around it wasn't the World Cup or anything like that.
Jeffrey Roel:It's just a fun little competition and and a way to think about wine differently. And I recommend to every single person who's doing any sort of study of wine to do every competition they can, to do every unique master class they can. I mean, anything that challenges you is is immensely valuable because the nature of the world is is egocentric. We put on blinders, we think what we think and the way we think is the way to think about those things.
Alex Abbott Boyd:They weren't holding themselves to the CMS advanced wine list. Right? I'm
Jeffrey Roel:sure No.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Could have been No. Any wines.
Jeffrey Roel:There's a Jura White. There was there was a Gamay. There was an Ontario Chardonnay, which is maybe broaching the point of testability as it were in the CMS.
Alex Abbott Boyd:What would you say are the hallmarks of Ontario Chardonnay? Acid.
Jeffrey Roel:Acid. We get so much acid for free. And there's such a strong backbone of of acidity in Ontario Chardonnay, even in those hotter vintages.
Alex Abbott Boyd:But, like, that's true of Chablis. So, like, what in what way
Jeffrey Roel:warmer in what now. Chablis is warmer.
Alex Abbott Boyd:In what way? So do you think even more acid?
Jeffrey Roel:I I think a lot of the chardonnay that I really like in Ontario looks more like white burgundy than it does like chablis. I think that's that's the style that that we can make really, really well, but the the backbone of acidity behind it is so evident and obvious, and it has a a tartar texture that maybe tastes like green apple sometimes. It's there's just there's a life quality to it. There's a lean and life quality to it that that stands out. And the second I noticed that glass, I mean, I practically could have called that it was Thomas Batchelder making the wine, but but it just read like Ontario Chardonnay.
Jeffrey Roel:Is
Alex Abbott Boyd:there any regions that you wish people were drinking more of besides maybe the ones that you've already listed as your favorite?
Jeffrey Roel:There's so much discovery out there. You know I don't wish more people were drinking any particular region, I just wish people were drinking more and willing to explore because there's
Alex Abbott Boyd:a world of discovery out there. I come into your restaurant and they say, I like burgundy. Great. I wanna drink burgundy. Yeah.
Jeffrey Roel:I love that for you. Me too. Yeah.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Well, obviously, but sometimes mean, the places point in the world
Jeffrey Roel:that drink like burgundy. I I think it it it is the point and it's not the point because burgundy is burgundy. And I I think that we make a mistake when we start to try and go, oh, but this is also like burgundy or this is like poor man's Burgundy. Even though I said it about the Barolo, I think that's an access point for people, but but I want people to drink wines on their own merits. I mean, the greatness of Ontario isn't that we have, you know, Wismore, Wingfield production that that can chase the greatness of Prudie Montrachet, it's the fact that it's really, really delicious wine.
Jeffrey Roel:And when you take it on its own merits, it has this extra minerality, it has this extra texture that speaks to this place in Ontario.
Alex Abbott Boyd:How do you inspire someone to explore more given how much great wine
Jeffrey Roel:this I I think more about about the texture and the shape of a wine that they like than the specifics of the place. It's not like I'm like, okay, look, this is gonna taste like Cheverich Chambertin, but it's, you know, it's from Australia. It's from Geelong or something like that. It's more like, listen, it sounds like you like really savory wines, wines of depth, wines with good acid to back them up, things like that. And then I can go into any number of places.
Jeffrey Roel:Think about other cool climates and but not other cool climates that are doing Pinot Noir. What are they doing well in their cool climate? But my job also as as a somm, my job also as as that person in hospitality is if you wanna drink that thing, I'm there to put it in front of you. I have great burgundy. But if you say, yeah, that's what I like, you know, maybe there's some great discovery in South Africa.
Jeffrey Roel:I mean, that Hamelinard Vineyard down all the way south has some really amazing surprises. And some of them are Pinot Noir, but there's also other grapes being grown there. I'm starting to think more and more that Syrah is better suited to cool climates than warm ones, that the best expressions that I'm enjoying the most are cooler, fresher, super peppery, super savory.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Obviously, you're excluding the Barossa Valley. Are you even excluding Hermitage? Is Hermitage too warm now? I think young Hermitage is
Jeffrey Roel:a really hard wine to drink. Okay. Fine. It delivers on depth with with age, but I think the same holds true in Barossa. Those young wines are they're not my favorite Syrahs by any means.
Jeffrey Roel:Cote roti in a cooler vintage maybe is a better expression than Hermitage in a in a cool vintage. Those 21 cote rotis are just excellent right now. But but I think you can walk even further in in, you know, Northeast Of Vienne and get to the Colline Rodanien, and there you get some really stunning examples of of Syrah. And if you wanna talk about value, of course, the value is there as well. But I had an Ontario Syrah from Port Morissette recently that just knocked my socks off.
Jeffrey Roel:I did the Avani that that you bring in, and it's 12 and a half percent alcohol. But my god, does it deliver Syrah in a glass? Yeah. I mean, if if you wanna talk about competition, getting a wine like that in a glass is such a treat because you already know what it is. Now you just have to place it.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I know. And, I mean, to your your point on being there, like, I had to stand in the Mornington Peninsula and feel winds coming from Antarctica Right. To get why you can make Syrah like this there.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful wine. Yeah.
Jeffrey Roel:Extraordinary. What was the question again? Just how you inspire people to drink more broadly. Yeah. I I mean, I I think that the the most important thing is is, you know, when people are willing to discover, there's a lot out there.
Jeffrey Roel:When they're not and and when they say, no, no, no, I wanna stay in my comfort zone, you leave them in their comfort zone. You know? Everybody's journey is their own. But the second they're willing to go on that journey with you, I mean, you can do it through things that are familiar. You can do it through things that are unfamiliar.
Jeffrey Roel:I like to use texture as an avenue, but but there's just so much out there. It's like, hey. Do you wanna taste a wine you've absolutely never experienced before? Do you wanna taste a wine that's chock full of, you know, earthiness and mushroom and and cherry like characteristics? Here's a Vain Jean for you.
Jeffrey Roel:You might not like it at all, but it's a discovery, and and the wine world is is full of of those kind of things. And I think, you know, I speak passionately about the subject. Enthusiasm is a is a great entry point for a lot of people as well. When you feel excited about something, that that enthusiasm is infectious, and people get there with you. Even if they don't like the wine, you know, I've it it happens, and but sometimes they're just like, hey.
Jeffrey Roel:Listen. Like, I really enjoyed that experience. I thought it was really fun. It was really cool. Don't like the wine whatsoever, but thank you for taking me there.
Jeffrey Roel:And, you know, if if the worst thing that happens is they walk away with, that's a place I don't wanna go back to, that's okay too. Because in the myriad of flavors and textures and so on in the wine world, it's okay to find the things that you don't like. It actually helps solve the problem of figuring out what you do like because it's like, Well, it's not that, so great. I've now blocked all of these things.
Alex Abbott Boyd:What gets people more excited on that point when you're talking about something new? I tend to lean towards telling the stories of the people behind the wine less than the wine itself. But I feel like it's a different context. If you're in a restaurant and someone's going have it with their food, probably need to tell them what it's going to taste like.
Jeffrey Roel:I mean, that can be a part of it. I I went up to to the Granite Club to do a fun somm competition up there, and and I the first wine that I got to pour for everybody, I told them, you're not gonna like this wine until you taste it with the food. And that's equally valuable. That's also a great discovery. I mean, is one of the great things that that wine does is it it solves an answer sometimes on the palate.
Jeffrey Roel:But it was a Grand Cru Pinot Gris from Alsace, and I said, you're gonna find this bitter, you're gonna find this you know, maybe some of you will think it's a bit soapy, but the second you put this fish crudo on your palate with all its citrus and ginger, this wine's gonna wake up, come to life. And 90% of the people were right there with me. They were like, yes. Yeah. I didn't like that wine at all, and now I love it.
Jeffrey Roel:And we get to do that in a restaurant. It's like, I'm gonna pour this in the right moment. I'm gonna give it to you when the dish is in front of you, when you put that sauce on the palate, and then try the wine. That's definitely the thing I love most in this industry.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Oh, when that works, it's gonna be awesome.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah. Yeah. Wanna circle back because I think one of the important things right now is this this whole thing that seems to be, you know, coming down on our shoulders that that people are not drinking wine. And and I I wanna know your opinion on that. Do do you think it's true?
Jeffrey Roel:Does it hold true in your life? Are people consuming less? Is it a fad?
Alex Abbott Boyd:I mean, there's there's so many things to say. So Gen Z gets blamed. However, the oldest one is, like, 29, so I don't think that's fair. I didn't drink wine seriously until I was in my thirties. So I'm not I'm not gonna blame Gen Z.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I think there's a concerted government effort to stop people drinking, which is inexplicable to Telling everyone that one or two glasses a week is the safe limit. I don't think it's scientifically based. They'll say that it doubles your risk of cancer and they'll neglect to say from a tenth of a percent to a twentieth of a percent. Or that having rich friendships will add ten years to your life. So maybe weigh, like if you can go out and drink wine with friends and have an amazing time, that might be worth having a tenth of a percent more.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Right. I'm not a doctor.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah, yeah. But
Alex Abbott Boyd:so it does seem like the government is doing that. There was a clip, and maybe you saw it, that went viral with, like, the number two podcaster in the world talking to the number seven podcaster in the world. And he's like, I had three glasses of wine, didn't get drunk, and it ruined the next three days of my life. Like, I didn't get up the next I slept in the next morning, I ate worse, I couldn't go to the gym, I podcasted worse, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's just these two people that have audiences of tens of millions of guys in their 20s listening to this.
Jeffrey Roel:Yeah, right.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And so I do think in many ways there's this there's like real forces against wine. At the same time, I think values of younger generations, I think as well as millennials, is to drink things that are honest, authentic, transparent, real. RTDs, White Claw, is sugar beer pretending to be a vodka soda filled with chemicals. Wine And is sunlight and rainwater. And so I think, you know, I think ultimately truth will out.
Alex Abbott Boyd:But you're not the only one who's been on this podcast and said, Well, I've heard wine is declining. I haven't seen it in my restaurants. So, I mean, maybe fine dining and higher end restaurants are immune to it, but the pressures seem real. And I know at a macro level, at the LCBO say, I think only New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc has been growing lately, and only by a small amount, and everything else Also Ontario.
Jeffrey Roel:Also Ontario.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yes. There there's tailwinds because they got rid of California. Right? So For sure. Especially before that, it was it was New Zealand Savvy Bee was the only thing growing.
Alex Abbott Boyd:So the pressures the pressures seem real.
Jeffrey Roel:This is also an area where I take issue is the idea that there will be exponential growth in everything. No. I mean, that's just strictly a capitalist position. If the levels stay even, that's not a bad thing. If the levels decline a little bit, well, maybe the certain category of people passed away last year that were drinking a considerable amount more.
Jeffrey Roel:The the other thing that I think holds true is that production levels have never been as high, and there is perhaps too much of everything
Alex Abbott Boyd:on the market. There's definitely too much, and prices are also too high. Like you mentioned great discoveries in Himalayan Ard in South Africa. Tasted a lot of those wines in wine Paris looking for one, and they wanted the prices for Burgundy. I just
Jeffrey Roel:like, Guys, you can't do it.
Alex Abbott Boyd:There's so many regions that I wanted to bring in wines from Trento, Alto, Adige, the Loire Valley, and I just I didn't think that they were worth like, you could not convince these people to sell their wine for a price that would then let me sell it. Yeah. Yeah. Good wine is just getting more
Jeffrey Roel:and more expensive. That's that's part of the equation. Like, how are we measuring the the drop in in consumption? Is it by total hectoliters sold around the world? Because there's so many facets of measurement for that.
Jeffrey Roel:Are we only taking the end line of what's being sold in restaurants? Are we taking the through line? Because there's a lot of people that I know that have these gigantic sellers that aren't buying a lot of wine anymore, but they're sure as hell drinking a lot of it. Yeah. But they already have it.
Jeffrey Roel:Well, do we count those numbers thirty years ago when they bought those bottles? I mean, this is one of the tough things. There's there's a lot of gray area for those kind of stats, but I also think the type of consumption has changed recently. I mean, seeing a lot more edibles and things like that in the market means that people are still consuming they're they're consuming something in this realm. It's just not wine or beer necessarily.
Jeffrey Roel:But but will what I think will always hold true is you're never gonna see in the middle of the Christmas table a pile of pot gummies. It's not gonna replace a bottle of wine at on those occasions. I think that's one of the the nice things about wine is how it slots into celebrations and and, you know, funerals and special occasions and time with friends and things like that. There's there's something special about sharing a bottle of wine with someone that that you just can't hit with with other consumables.
Alex Abbott Boyd:A 100%. The first written language that we know of is Sumerian, And they have a word for wine. But they're in Southern Iraq. They don't make wine there. So contained in the first written language that we know of is a word that implies there was wine trading happening from places that make wine to this place.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And so given that it's that old, I'm bullish in the long term. But in the short term, it's tough. Wish I could be selling the $100 bottles now, but no one's buying them.
Jeffrey Roel:But you can also see those trends historically. Mean, 1970s saw a huge glut in wine performance around the world. And and, again, there was an overproduction at the time. There were ostensibly some terrible, terrible vintages. That's kind of what we're seeing right now, isn't it?
Jeffrey Roel:And when the whole world is screaming like the wine world's on fire, it probably does make people a little bit averse to engage with it. It's like, well, what if there's no wine next year? It's like, what if I really like this thing, but I can't find it anymore? I mean, to your point, there's so many there's so many factors being pushed through extraneously that put a a sour light on on everything, on on this industry.
Alex Abbott Boyd:We just have to keep sharing great, delicious wine with people and Just I'll keep doing it. Well, I think I think ultimately what way that I make myself feel better is that I think maybe people had it really easy in wine for a while, in the sense that boomers grew up, got wealthy, and bought tons of wine. And it was aspirational because beer was bad then, cocktails were bad then, and weed was illegal. Right.
Jeffrey Roel:So, all right. So they had wine.
Alex Abbott Boyd:So they had wine. And now we have to work harder. So, well, we probably should already have been telling a better, more inclusive, more welcoming story, a gatekeeping way of approaching wine. Now we're just gonna all have to figure that out.
Jeffrey Roel:So to that point, I'm reading a book on the Douro right now and the port wine trade and its history. And when oidium was affecting the vineyards, there was a writer, it might have been, Forrester at the time, in Oporto, who said that oidium is bad, but apathy is worse. And we can treat oidium, but if apathy controls this production, we've lost it. And I think that's exactly what you're talking about, right? There's a lot of extraneous factors, but the most important one is when we get lazy and comfortable in any industry.
Jeffrey Roel:What happens to it?
Alex Abbott Boyd:Just need more hardworking people like you. That's right. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you.
Listen to Tasting Notes Toronto by Insider Wine using one of many popular podcasting apps or directories.