Episode 22
· 50:20
So you've spent years reporting on both wine and sake. Do you think sake is actually the more interesting?
Nancy Matsumoto:What brewmasters or master brewers can accomplish with just four simple ingredients is really mind boggling. There's so much beautiful, beautifully made sake that I think a great bottle of sake can rival a really nice bottle of wine. When you think about, for example, grape varietals, there might be what, 10,000? You probably know better than I do. There are maybe a 100, maybe a little bit more sake specific rices.
Nancy Matsumoto:So we're talking about a much smaller universe.
Alex Abbott Boyd:How did you first connect with sake and get inspired by it?
Nancy Matsumoto:Even though I'm Japanese American, I didn't grow up drinking sake. But I was living in New York. I was reporting on the food and drink scene, and I got assigned a few stories on sake. And really, it's the best way. When you're a journalist, you get to talk to the top sommelier and educators and go to the best sake bars.
Nancy Matsumoto:And the people I met were so passionate. They were educators. They were importers. They were bartenders. And so I kinda fell into this rabbit hole and started learning more and earned some certifications, started going to Japan to report on sake.
Nancy Matsumoto:And it just, you know, how it is. It happened with you with wine. It happened with me with sake.
Alex Abbott Boyd:When you're talking to people like me who have maybe gone more down the rabbit hole with wine, is there something that you feel like we often just don't understand about sake?
Nancy Matsumoto:Probably the biggest misconception or misnomer is to hear people call it rice wine because it is really not wine. It's a brewed beverage. So it has, in many ways, more in common with beer than with wine because you're dealing with a dried grain that has to go through the saccharification process to break down those starches into sugars so that yeast can ferment them. So, in beer, you have the whole malting process, but in sake, you have this magic ingredient called koji, which is a fascinating universe into itself. Considered the national mold or fungus in Japan, and we wouldn't have soy sauce or miso or mirin or any of those things if we didn't have koji.
Nancy Matsumoto:So, it's this whole dimension that sake has that wine does not have.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I have heard you use some of the terms that are more familiar to wine with sake, for instance, terroir or different growers. Do you think that is appropriate or do you think because of those differences, those comparisons to wine are maybe misleading?
Nancy Matsumoto:I think it's both. I think there are, first of all, a lot of sake makers, very prominent and good sake makers who love wine. They love France. They go to France. They they drink wine, and they're very taken by the notion of terroir.
Nancy Matsumoto:So you start seeing the infiltration of these terms. And there's even a sake maker who's done a single blot series so that you can pair them. And it's really fun. And I think a lot of the motivation is really to try to speak a Westerner's language so that if you're a wine lover, you think, oh, I get it. Sake has terroir too.
Nancy Matsumoto:But as I and my co writer, Michael Tramblay, point out in our book, Exploring the World of Japanese Craft Sake, it's really an imperfect fit because you're talking about a grain that is harvested, dried, stored, thresh, milled. All of these things happen before it gets into the hands of the brewer and the brewing process starts.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah.
Nancy Matsumoto:So it's very different from a fresh fruit where you want that freshness and you want it to come off the field and then be crushed and fermented. Traditionally, if you were a really great sake brewer and you wanted to get the best yabaranishiki, say, for example, in the country, you might try to get it from Hyogo Prefecture where it is native and where all of the tokuei, the very top grade fields, are going to be, so like the grandkru of Yamaranichiki. This is changing partly because of climate change and how regions are changing and what you can grow where is changing. But then there's also this real attempt to give a sense of place to sake, again, taking cues from wine. And so, the whole idea of the geographical indication has become quite popular.
Nancy Matsumoto:And so, you need to have the rice and the water and the yeast and the koji all from the same prefecture. So you have a little bit more of that sort of terroir concept taking hold. A lot of it is marketing. You don't have to have that to make a great sake, but it's, oh, okay, I can get a sake there where everything is from Yamagata or everything is from Ishikawa. So, yeah, it's a mixed bag.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Traditionally, the best sake, were they produced from a single region or would they, like you mentioned, source rice from where they knew it would be the best rice and then their water from either their local source or maybe somewhere they thought the water was better.
Nancy Matsumoto:Traditionally, was all very local just like you would have a French village and everyone would drink whatever was growing and being made there. Was your local van de tableau. So, yeah, it was an era of real jizake where every village would grow their rice. They would have someone to mill it, to make sake out of it. And that was what everyone would drink.
Nancy Matsumoto:And it tended to go really well with the local cuisine. So for example, if you're in Hiroshima, you're gonna get sake that's really good with oysters. If you're gonna Kyushu or in Saga, it's gonna be sweeter. Or if you're going to go in the Niigata area, it's going to be cleaner and drier. So it really has to do with what the produce is, how things are preserved, what the cuisine is like.
Nancy Matsumoto:So there was, I think, a real sense of regionality at one time that in some ways doesn't really exist because styles have become very much a matter of what an individual brewer wants to do, what they want to express. So there was a period in the 1970s where brewers started to want to go back to Gizake because they wanted to have that local, regional taste. Now, I think there's just so many trends and so much going on. When we were reporting our book, every brewery we would go to, we'd say, Oh, what's the typical wine of X? Whatever region we're in?
Nancy Matsumoto:And they'd say, It used to be like this, but now we make all kinds of things. And it doesn't really hold the same way.
Alex Abbott Boyd:This is probably a dumb question. But the way that the sakes in the regions evolve go well with the cuisine, that's not the characteristics of the rice in that region, is it? Or is it more like the brewer over time learned to customize to the
Nancy Matsumoto:local food? It's just one of these things that happens with humans and nature and agriculture. It's a way we've domesticated dogs, we've domesticated Koji. And so, the two grow up together in symbiosis, and they're going to grow up in a way that complements each other. So I think it's a combination of human actions and coaxing nature to behave the way you want it to, but then also saying, oh, these foods go best with these kinds of drinks that we're making.
Nancy Matsumoto:It's just it's very hard to, I think, separate those influences.
Alex Abbott Boyd:That makes sense. For someone who's newer into sake and they want to experience the diversity of it, would there maybe two or three bottles that represent different styles that you'd really recommend someone seek out to get that experience?
Nancy Matsumoto:Yeah. The vast majority of sake that's made is Futsu Ishu in Japan. That accounts for maybe, I think, about 60%. What we tend to get imported here would be the tokutei mei shou shou or the more premium, more artisanal types. And things are rapidly changing in terms of classifications.
Nancy Matsumoto:And ten years ago, everyone would have said, Start with a Gingzhou, start with a Dai Gingzhou, start with a highly polished, aromatic, fruity floral type of sake, because it was a big technical breakthrough when sake brewers were able to make these very elegant and refined sake for a mass market. So they were since the beginning of the century, they were competition sakes where you would try to impress people with your brewing prowess, your technical prowess, and you would win awards with these. But when the breakthrough came, it was known as the ginjo boom. So everyone could have a glass of really good ginjo sake for The the goal of the guy who made this breakthrough at Dewa Zakura was I wanna create a sake where a glass of sake would cost about what a cup of coffee would cost. And so when that happened, everyone wanted to go cold sake, dai ginjo to my dai ginjo.
Nancy Matsumoto:Now, a combination of incredible technical advances, just amazing brewers, you're getting brewers who just don't care about how much of the outside of the grain has been milled off. So in the old days, it would be it has to be at least 70% milled off, and then you're talking real premium. All of that's out the window now. But I would say, yeah, try a Ginjo. Try a Jumei Ginjo.
Nancy Matsumoto:Try a Tokubansu Ginjo. These are gonna be high quality, really well made. But then go to some of these more cutting edge brewers who are doing very low polish, but still getting incredible expressions and variety. They're thinking about it from both sort of a sustainability point of view. It takes three days to get I was just at Dase Brewery, Dase Blue in Hyde Park, and they were telling me it takes three days of milling to get their 23%, which means only 23% of the grain remains.
Nancy Matsumoto:So, that's a lot of energy. That's a lot of wasted grain. Might go to animal feed. It's cosmetics. So part of it is wanting to be more sustainable, wanting to lower the carbon footprint.
Nancy Matsumoto:And part of it is just people who like these sake.
Alex Abbott Boyd:How does a low polished sake taste compared to these traditionally
Nancy Matsumoto:That's even hard to say because there are so many different expressions. Terada Honke, which is well known as being the equivalent of the natural winemaker in sake. They do a Katori 90 that's more on the robust savory side. But I've also had very low polish that are very beautiful and elegant. And so I just don't think you can sort of Yeah.
Nancy Matsumoto:Apply across the board sorts of, oh, it's gonna taste like this when it's at 90%. It's gonna taste like this when it's at which makes it really exciting what's happening now.
Alex Abbott Boyd:If you're enjoying the episode, I have a quick ask. Ratings and reviews actually matter a lot more than most people think. It's how the show grows and how I can keep getting great guests like this. You can do it right now while you're listening. Leaving a rating takes about ten seconds, and I'd really appreciate it.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And if you already have, thank you so much. Alright. Back to the show. To tie a few of the things you just mentioned together, you talked about in this move to more sustainability, some sake breweries are investing much more in technology, automating processes, making things more energy efficient, and letting go of the mystique of the intuition of the master brewer. Did I get that right?
Nancy Matsumoto:I hope I didn't give the impression that it was one or the other. You could go high-tech or you could have human intuition and centuries of acquired knowledge because I think in the best cases, you're having both. And again, I think Dasai is a good example. In Hyde Park, they showed me this tiny little sensor that gives so much information about the moisture content of rice, how long they need to soak it, how long they need to steam it. And these were things that now it's calibrated, they can get an immediate reading.
Nancy Matsumoto:In the Edo period, in the seventeenth century, it would be all touch and human intuition. And some of the really great artisanal brewer today was on at Adamasai, he'll say. We are nothing compared to the Edo Era brewers because what they achieved with none of the sort of technology we have today is just completely mind blowing. But what a place like Dasai will do is they will, yes, take advantage of all of these gadgets and sensors, but they're also still keeping their rice steaming and washing in very small batches. And they're making their starter, their motto, also in very small batches.
Nancy Matsumoto:Again, because they feel like you need that human touch and you need to have real control over the final product. It's both. So even in Yamaguchi, where the big dasai is, they're creating a huge volume, but they also have a lot of people doing small batch production. So a combination. And it's what I feel about agriculture in general, which is that, yes, we should embrace technology and we should embrace it where it's gonna make us more regenerative and sustainable, where it's gonna save labor.
Nancy Matsumoto:But it doesn't make the need for the human touch and taste and intuition any less important.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I also have heard that they're investing in paying farmers to grow heirloom sake rices. Is having that kind of regionality, locality, sustainability, however you want to frame that, is that really just down to people setting the right incentives and paying for it?
Nancy Matsumoto:The stories that we tell in the craft socket book I know I I told the story about, I think, Miho Imada in Hiroshima and maybe Omachu where there was a real push to bring back an heirloom grain called Omachi. And so, what often happens is at the beginning, the person who's trying to bring back an heirloom and push back the clock in the older ways and varieties, you get pushback from the farmers, A, because they tend to be harder to grow, which is the reason they disappeared in the first place. No one really cared as much about taste as productivity, ease of harvest. So Omachi and a lot of these heirlooms are really tall. They tend to lodge.
Nancy Matsumoto:They tend to fall over. They're difficult for farmers to grow. Toshimori san in Okayama told us that, yes, he had to give incentives. I think Miho had to do the same thing. And I see the same thing reporting on, say, the re regionalization of the grain movement in North America, where once we had little mills all over North America and farmers growing wonderful varieties of wheat that were super tasty.
Nancy Matsumoto:But with the advent of industrialization, that technology gets super sized. You get the roller mill. Everything is consolidated under a few large companies. And all those little mills disappeared just the same way that all those little sake breweries disappeared. And so, the people trying to revive these grain movements in the Northeast would have to beg bribe and really cajole these farmers into going back and growing small grains because they were selling it for pennies on the dollar as cover crops or animal feed.
Nancy Matsumoto:They have a hard time believing that they're going to make money doing this. So the idea is you need to, yes, create incentives in the beginning to get people to say, Okay, I'll give it a shot. And as one amazing grain pioneer in Maine said, she would always sit down with the farmers and say, Okay, let's have a plan B. Say this doesn't work. What's your backup?
Nancy Matsumoto:And really give them a safety net so that they feel like they can take a risk. But the idea, and I think this has happened for sure in Okayama and in Hiroshima, is that now these varieties are super popular. People are drinking them. People wanna drink them. And so it becomes just part of the agricultural system.
Nancy Matsumoto:So ideally and this is a huge problem that I write about in my agriculture book, Reaping What She Sows, is how you need this kind of upfront investment to push progressive change that's going be good for the environment. It just doesn't happen because that's not what the commodity system, what governments are supporting. So you get these sort of maverick idealistic people who want either amazing taste or climate friendly or ideally both. And they're just trying to figure out how do we even get financed for this. And it's really a struggle.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. I'd love to get more into your new book. I know one of the important distinctions you make is between big ag and alternative food systems. I think you were just referencing it a little bit, but could you share for you what the differences are between those?
Nancy Matsumoto:Yeah, it's a big theme of my latest book, which is called Reaping What How Women Are Rebuilding Our Broken Food System. So on one level, I tell the story of these amazing women producers in six different countries around the world who have this vision of a better way to grow, produce food that's going to be much better for our ecosystems. It's trying to roll back the damage that, say, seventy, eighty years of industrialized agriculture has done to our soil, to our waterways. It's really extracted so much from the earth, and it's being subsidized by government policies and by cheap food, which we're paying for in many other ways that we don't see. Most people, you go to the grocery store and you don't realize that you're part of this big industrial food system that is manipulating you because we have this illusion of all these different brands and choice.
Alex Abbott Boyd:So, all the organic and sustainable labels, they're not?
Nancy Matsumoto:A lot of them are now owned by those handful of few companies. But so with the women who are outside of this big agricultural commodity food system, and they're the people who are creating what I call the alternative or alt food system, is they're trying to go back to, just like the socket makers, older forms of harvesting locally, harvesting grains and produce that taste better, and doing it in an agroecological way. So, big difference is they're not using chemical synthetic inputs, whether it's fertilizers or pesticides. And these farmers are doing great now because no one can get chemical fertilizers because of the Strait reform moves and all these supply chain disruptions. And in the same way, COVID was a great wake up call.
Nancy Matsumoto:It's like you couldn't get a lot of things from the commodity food systems, but the resilient food systems were in your backyard. They were your local and regional food systems. So people woke up to that and realized, oh, not only does it make a lot more sense, it's a matter of food security and national security, but this food tastes amazing. So, it's trying to wake people up to the fact that they really have a choice. They can support your local alternative, or they can just do status quo and go to your big box supermarket and get something that's from a very long and very opaque supply chain that's probably completely extractive on every level, human, animal, and environmental.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Could you share a little bit more, say I am trying to be conscientious, so I'm going to Whole Foods and I'm buying everything organic. It sounds like there's, that's still coming through this big system that's having the costs that you're talking about. Could you maybe go into Whole Foods, I buy everything organic or if it's seafood, it has a sustainable sticker, but what's happening behind there that you think is not actually sustainable and good for the planet?
Nancy Matsumoto:I would say it's very complicated and the longer the supply chain, the more opaque and not transparent it becomes. The old ideal is you've got a vegetable garden in your backyard and you're growing your own. You know exactly you didn't put any chemicals on it. It's great. The next step would be go to your farmer's market.
Nancy Matsumoto:I'm a huge fan of Witchwood Barns, and there are so many good farmer's markets here in Toronto. And I know many of the farmers and the vendors, and I know what their practices are. Some of them may not be certified organic, but I know that they're doing everything possible to minimize inputs. All the labeling is very difficult, especially in a place like the Northeast or Southern Ontario, where you have really hot, humid summers. It's very hard sometimes not to have to resort to some sort of spray.
Nancy Matsumoto:But there is this thing called integrated pest management where you're environmentally conscious and responsible, and you're doing everything in your power to restrict. So, in my book, I talk about this whole orchard certification program where their orchards in the Northeast, they can't grow the way you can if you're in the Pacific Northwest, and you don't need any inputs. It's dry, it's cool, it's perfect. So they have this whole protocol, which they came up with a whole team of scientists and botanists. And it's how do you grow these as agroecologically as possible?
Nancy Matsumoto:You're not spraying when there is any kind of fruit on the vine. You're weed whacking as much as possible instead of pouring chemicals. But it takes a huge amount of education on the part of the growers and these organizations who come up with these certifications. Can you talk to the farmer? Can you learn what they're doing?
Nancy Matsumoto:And can you trust them? And there is a fair amount of greenwashing going on.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I would feel silly at the farmer's market if I said, Do you follow integrative pest management too?
Nancy Matsumoto:I know. All you have to do is say, Are you certified? And they'll say, No, but this is what we do. We really try to minimize. And that's basically the same thing.
Nancy Matsumoto:But I think the good news is that General Mills and all these giant corporations are listening to the change happens at the grassroots. And they know people care about the fact that we're polluting our environment. There's really bad health outcomes because of all the chemical spraying on our fields. And so, they're trying to respond to consumer demand for something that is more sustainable and regenerative. How good of the job they do really varies.
Nancy Matsumoto:And again, I don't want to just say it's all bad. But for instance, I write about certification and fair trade. And sometimes all you have to do is Google rainforest certified or whatever it is. And then you'll say, oh, actually, were lawsuits saying they're not upholding their promises. And sometimes it's that easy.
Nancy Matsumoto:There are a lot of really good Marine Stewardship Council, for example, certification programs for seafood. So I know it's a big ask for the consumer, but do a little research, see what those different labels entail. See one of the ones that I write in the book is not just, oh, yes, we're giving money back and we're doing this and that, but it's outcomes verified. So people go and they measure how your soil content has changed. And are you really improving the ecosystem?
Nancy Matsumoto:And so that's a little bit more other certifications have third party verifiers. So when you see those, also a little bit more trustworthy.
Alex Abbott Boyd:It's trustworthy. When I talk to wineries from my importing agency, several of them are certified organic, but so many of them just say it's too much of a burden to do all of
Nancy Matsumoto:the The burden of paperwork and these are people who are already completely
Alex Abbott Boyd:And maybe 90% of the rules make sense to them, but there's a rule that we wouldn't care about as consumers maybe about how they water their vineyard or something.
Nancy Matsumoto:Or it's just not applicable to their region or their climate or whatever. And so there's so many little nuances that make it very difficult. Certainly I don't demand I want only organic wine, but I want to know what their philosophy is and what their practices are. And I think with wine, there's a lot that's available and winemakers talk about their growing practices. I feel pretty comfortable when I read up about a winery and I'll think, I think they're really doing the right thing.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. In terms of what someone can do with their own food consumption to make things more sustainable, I guess I'm curious how you navigate the couple issues that have come up just for me. I love to go to the Evergreen Brickworks Farmer's Market.
Nancy Matsumoto:Yeah. That's a good one too.
Alex Abbott Boyd:But I'll pick up enough to cook a few meals for the weekend and it's so expensive. But at the same time you referenced the cheap food has hidden costs. How do you think about that? Because I imagine one of the hidden costs is healthcare costs, but someone else's healthcare costs don't affect me.
Nancy Matsumoto:Yeah. No, it's so complicated. Yes. We start from the understanding that we're not paying the true cost of food. So there's this respected organization, the Lancet Foundation, and in their latest 2025 report, it was really very strongly worded, but it said, look, we generate in the global food system $15,000,000,000,000 of business annually, but we are spending $12,000,000,000,000 to offset the damage of that food system.
Nancy Matsumoto:And this is in human costs, health care, chronic diseases, loss of productivity from work. And then a huge part of that cost is environmental. So the downstream effects of all of those chemical applications for decades, we have the algae blooms in the Gulf Of Mexico. We have people in the global South who are being choked with pollution. The rising heat.
Nancy Matsumoto:Agriculture's account accounts for one third of greenhouse gas.
Alex Abbott Boyd:So How much of that is animal agriculture?
Nancy Matsumoto:A good percent. I mean, especially if it's meat is very high. So this needs subsidy. There should be government subsidies just the way there are for conventional Iowa. So if you're a giant soy or farm farmer doing a monocrop, tons of chemicals, you're getting huge amounts of crop subsidies and loans and insurance from the government.
Nancy Matsumoto:That money has to be shifted over to sustainable and regenerative practice. And until that happens, someone's got to pay that cost. And again, it's unfair to ask the person who's counting their pennies and trying to feed their family. What I would say is as much as possible, cook whole foods. So if you can go to the grain market and afford cherry pick, I'm going to get some really good vegetables.
Nancy Matsumoto:I'm going get a little bit of meat. I'm going to decenter meat on my plate. I'm going to go heavy on grains. I was just at a conference at the Culinary Institute of America, the message was beans, legumes, and pulses, and low on the seafood chain. So don't get those carnivorous fish who are eating other fish protein to grow.
Nancy Matsumoto:Fine if you're getting a 100% grass fed and finished beef, but make it a small little bit of charcuterie from there are so many great people who are doing this kind of work. So you're re rewiring the way you eat. That's much better for your health and better for the planet. And don't buy if you buy these processed foods, the markup, the amount you're paying for having someone stuff it full of ultra processed chemicals and things is huge. And so a lot of the people who are crying, I can't afford it, are also spending a huge amount on fast food, on takeout.
Nancy Matsumoto:And one good thing is to learn how to cook or find someone in your family who likes to cook. And you're saving a lot of money just by scratch cooking. So, I think it's a matter of being more aware and really caring enough to say, how can I make this work? And of course, I'm not gonna be perfect. We all go to Costco or whatever and try to buy our bulk thing because it's saving us money.
Nancy Matsumoto:Just think we can all try to be a little bit better.
Alex Abbott Boyd:It's clearly it doesn't make sense that the government incentivizes the mass farming, but not At the local the same time, I worry, though, even if that switched overnight I've been a member of a CSA and I'm just being devil's advocate here. And I could not cook for the week from that because one week you get all lettuce, like five different kinds of lettuce. Then one week later into the winter or the fall you're gonna get all root vegetables. Yeah. I feel like there's gotta be this leap in us thinking differently about how we even cook meat.
Nancy Matsumoto:Yeah. And that's changing because a lot of farm models are really changing the way they do their CSAs where they're trying to become more food hubs. So when you get that CSA box, you're getting something from the local cheese maker. You're getting something from the local charcuterie maker. You might even get the local sustainable flour grower thing or the bread share.
Nancy Matsumoto:So I think there's a recognition that I remember in New York, I
Alex Abbott Boyd:was part New York like ten years ago. Oh, bag of lettuce. I'm like, what am I
Nancy Matsumoto:gonna do? Yeah. That whole bag of beets, And you think, okay. You'd have to be a very dedicated cook to devote a weekend to processing it all, making stuff, freezing it. And I do think that it's changing, and you're getting a little bit more varied CSA box now.
Nancy Matsumoto:And I've seen some of them, and I think there's a lot happening there. But, yeah, I think that's something farms need to think about too to make it really more user friendly. The grass fed beef producer, that's who's in my book, Cori Carmen, she was talking about how, of course, the highest profit margin she's getting when she sells a quarter of a cow or a half a cow because it's all profit. But how she need she's planning to go to more to the way her customers cook. So you would have the beef broth.
Nancy Matsumoto:You would have the small cuts. You would have the burgers, things packaged so that you can pull it out on a weeknight and quickly make something for dinner. So I think people are trying to think about it more from the consumer's point of view, but it's a two way street.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend who had a sustainable meat business and he would tell me how hard it was to match the sales to the ratio that meat comes off a cow and how so often he'd have to be turning very high end cuts into burgers just cause that's what else was he gonna do with it?
Nancy Matsumoto:And that's just the problem of these alternative food systems in general is you need so much coordination because you have to match supply and demand. So with grains, for example, there are people who are painstakingly rebuilding the grain value chain. So you want a certain number of millers, you want a certain number of farmers, you want to have a certain number of storage, amount of transportation, certain number of bakers who know how to bake with these whole grains. But unless supply and demand are in lockstep, it's not gonna work. But these are fundamental systemic problems that really require government and policy to address.
Nancy Matsumoto:But there are also things that we as individuals can do.
Alex Abbott Boyd:In your book, you're highlighting how women are leading this change. Why do you think women are leading this effort and at the fore of change?
Nancy Matsumoto:It comes from reporting in this area for a long time and seeing who the change makers on the ground are. I also went to a women in agriculture conference in Portland, Oregon in about, I wanna say, 2015, 2016. And the energy and the positive vibe in this whole giant convention was so incredible. And I realized it really is women who are driving this movement. And it's not to say there aren't amazing men.
Nancy Matsumoto:I can think of many men who are very much leaders in the regenerative or sustainable agriculture movement. But everywhere I go, and when I'm interviewing people, they say, We love that you're doing this. And they just list all the women who are doing this work. When I went to NYU, I spoke at the Nutrition and Food Studies program, and it was a full classroom. Every single person in there was a woman.
Nancy Matsumoto:And these are our future food system leaders. It goes back to there were matriarchal societies in different points in human history. We don't happen to be in one of those right now. But women have been leaders of food production and food distribution. The UN has recognized the incredible potential of women to lead agroecological change.
Nancy Matsumoto:And that's why this is the Year of the Woman Farmer. But the key is that woman has to be empowered. So there's a lot of effort worldwide to empower women because they are the bulk of the labor force who is powering the small peasant agriculture movement. And we need to empower them, give them the skills, tools. In North America, women just aren't typically the ones who are inheriting the farms, who have access to capital, to agriculture education, to loans.
Nancy Matsumoto:They tend to be a little bit more on the margins and periphery. And they also tend to be more systems thinker and more thinking about the community. So I have this great quote in my book from Boo Nygrens, who is part of this amazing decades old women led produce distribution company based in San Francisco. And they grew out of the whole alternative sort of co op hippie movement of the 70s. And they have survived from this time.
Nancy Matsumoto:Still, women run. And she said, when women control the finances, everyone gets fed, children get fed, everyone gets a fair shake. It's about cooperation, not about competition. And I think there is less of a top down profit only motive, but more about how can we make everyone, how can we take care of everyone? So I think all of these things are part of it.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Was there any story that changed the way you think about sustainability the most?
Nancy Matsumoto:One lovely example that I would just list out of many is there's this fantastic farm in California called Full Belly. And we started probably close to forty years ago. Four people, two couples. The woman in my book, she was one of the founding members. Her name is Drew Rivers.
Nancy Matsumoto:And she showed me the farm. They have maybe 80 different varieties of fruits, vegetables. They are still going strong. And the way they do it is they're incredibly diversified. So they have a completely organic certified.
Nancy Matsumoto:They have huge number of value added products. They have a giant commercial kitchen, so they're creating jams and chutneys and then just a lot of product. They also have 400 acres. So they host weddings, parties, venues. So that's another income stream.
Nancy Matsumoto:They have an annual hose down festival that can get 3,000, 5,000 people camping out on the grounds. They have agroecological workshops. They're also very involved in state legislation. So they're advocating for small organics in basically the heart of the industrial agricultural California. And when I was there, they were having a meeting about building affordable worker housing, for example, because that's a huge problem.
Nancy Matsumoto:Workers are priced out of housing. So, they're involved on so many different levels, from policy to regenerating the land, to value added, to education. And I'd love to go to this annual festival because it sounds incredibly fun. Know, people are eating and dancing and singing, and it just sounds incredible. I think I describe it as like the modern Woodstock.
Nancy Matsumoto:And managing to make a go of it. So, this is an example of how people can do it. Every day they have a staff lunch, so all the farm workers can eat these incredible lunches.
Alex Abbott Boyd:They sound like inspired people.
Nancy Matsumoto:They really are. They're very idealistic, but also very good business people. And there are a lot of these farms in California where workers will never taste the strawberry, the beets or whatever they're growing. They don't lay a hand on it. Here, workers are taking home bags of it.
Nancy Matsumoto:It's incredibly inspiring. And it really is one of many examples of people being able to make it work.
Alex Abbott Boyd:What's is there an example from Canada?
Nancy Matsumoto:Yeah. I really love Skipper Auto. I buy my fish from them. It's a small community supported fishery that started as the mat leave project of a woman named Sonia Strobel. And she was a teacher.
Nancy Matsumoto:I forget elementary, middle school. She was on mat leave, to be married into a fishing family, and was appalled at how little these small fisher people got and said, There's got to be a better way. So, started with a handful of fishing families aggregating and then starting a little basically, the equivalent of a CSA. And now, what do they have? Like, 8,000 members.
Nancy Matsumoto:It's in three territories, the fish.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I think I'm gonna be joining. I was inspired when I was reading.
Nancy Matsumoto:Oh, you read that. Yeah. And now they ship directly to your apartment, but you have a minimum order. So I have to clear freezer space to get, like, the minimum order, and then it lasts me a long time. But and then it it was kinda like you were describing growing your podcast.
Nancy Matsumoto:You know, start knowing nothing, and then every year it gets a little better. They figured out the processing. They figured out how to do fresh from the dock. They're processing. They're freezing.
Nancy Matsumoto:Getting these distribution channels. So that was a really inspiring Canadian example.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I guess for chefs and people in hospitality who really believe in this and want to support it more, are just dealing with razor thin margins in an industry that's hard to survive, What are some examples you've seen of how people can make that work?
Nancy Matsumoto:It's super hard. I think everyone knows that. It's so hard to make a profit and then to add on your ethics and your beliefs on top of that. It's really a tall order. I do think people are making it work.
Nancy Matsumoto:When I'm at Witchwood, I'll see Minh and Hoon from Melville a lot. I know they go there in Trinity. I'll see Zach from Dreyfus And Ginsburg. I know there are a lot of chefs who are going out of their way to support local farms and farmers. I've talked to Nancy Self about Tamarac Farms.
Nancy Matsumoto:I know she personally is delivering to all 16 of her customers, probably mostly restaurant customers. So there are restaurants who are and some chefs have told me you you are able to highlight the farm and really uplift the name of whoever's product you're using. You can charge a little more because people say, Okay, it's lintin, or it's tamarack, or it's whatever. And I can taste that it's super good, and I'm willing to pay a little bit more about it. So again, I think it's really being very careful about which products you feel are most important that you want that highest quality.
Nancy Matsumoto:You want it organically raised so that the flavor is there. And then you're making that part of the story of what you're telling people and why you're paying more for that dish. I because I'm one of the converted, I will happily pay that price if I see those names, and I will go out of my way to support chefs who are doing that hard work. So, yeah, there are a lot of people, a lot of chefs who are doing it and and some very quietly and just it's important to them because they care about taste, if not the whole environmental efforts that are going on and the the efforts to regenerate ecosystems.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. There's I know you mentioned there are so many, and I guess I work with many places around Toronto that are putting in that effort. Are there a handful that you'd like to highlight as some of your favorite restaurants in the city that really do put a real focus and effort behind that Yeah.
Nancy Matsumoto:I think the ones that I mentioned, Mel and then Ricky and Olivia really try to stress local and sustainable. Fat Rabbit in Saint Catherine's, they're also really good on that. I know Stu at Sakai Bar gets a lot of really good Japanese vegetables locally and places like Contrada. And, yeah, I think there are a lot. You should tell me who some of your clients are that you feel are doing a good job.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Richmond Station is one the things comes to mind.
Nancy Matsumoto:Yes. Montgomery's when when they were still doing it, and now Guy is teaching at George Brown, you know, inspiring. The pine. Yes. That was really nice.
Nancy Matsumoto:Very local.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. I think it's more impressive when you can do it not at Michelin Star level or at least not at Michelin Star prices.
Nancy Matsumoto:Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Abbott Boyd:To start tying this back into wine and sake, what do you think makes for a truly sustainable vineyard and winery? I've already talked to you enough that I know you're not gonna insist that they have an organic certification. No. Does biodynamic matter to you, or is it more a case by case holistic
Nancy Matsumoto:I think it's case by case. I do love biodynamic wines. I feel that there is something special about them. I know some people poo poo and think it's too crazy, but my experience with them is they're beautiful and makers are very passionate, and there is something special about them. I Can
Alex Abbott Boyd:you ask this is a dumb question. My understanding is biodynamics was made up by a racist Austrian who'd never farmed. And yet so many passionate and inspiring people are following the practice. I don't understand how those two things exist at the same time.
Nancy Matsumoto:Rudolf Steiner is the founder and there are whole I know there's a Rudolf Steiner School in Manhattan, for example, and they are known to be very much about hands on sort of experiential kind of work. I don't know much about his racist that side of him. But I do think that it's it seems to be very in sync with nature. And some people maybe don't follow it to the letter because they feel like some practices are maybe not necessary. But I don't know.
Nancy Matsumoto:So you are more of a skeptic.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I'm not a skeptic in the sense that I've had so many great wines. Some of my winemakers followed by dynamic practices
Nancy Matsumoto:and they
Alex Abbott Boyd:make beautiful wines. It's just more.
Nancy Matsumoto:How did that happen?
Alex Abbott Boyd:How did that happen based on where this came from?
Nancy Matsumoto:Yeah. That's a really good question. I think you could separate if you're a brilliant filmmaker and you're Nazi, does that make the work not legitimate? And I think the same could be said about wine. They could be horrible people making incredible wines, and somehow they came up with this formula that worked.
Nancy Matsumoto:But I do think it's a case by case level situation because every vineyard is different, their challenges, their soil needs, what their natural advantages are, what their deficits are, how do you make those up? So much of it has to do with the intention and the effort that the farmer or the winemaker puts in to build the soil to where it needs to be. Alice Anderson, who's the winemaker in my book, is so inspiring because and lucky because she describes loving every aspect of her job. And that includes putting on 200 tons of compost in seven years and having 40 different types of cover crops and having chicken and geese and sheep roaming around on her vineyards and doing all of these things that are bringing incredible vitality. And you taste her wines, and they're just gorgeous.
Nancy Matsumoto:And you understand that all this effort is paying off and that it's just to her is, you know, she and the level of attention that it takes. Like, she walks that little pot around every day. And a lot of these organic growers, they're just on a schedule, like spray X amount, X times a week, and it's overkill and you don't need it. She's walking around and she's looking at, okay, here are hotspots, and I'm gonna very strategically maybe spray a little bit here and there, but really very in tune with nature. But it takes a certain type of personality.
Nancy Matsumoto:It takes a level of observation and really caring about the land in a way that everyone in my book has this incredible passion, which leads to a really detailed knowledge of their land, their animals. And it's just not something you could prescribe, but like, this is how you do it. So that's what makes it so hard to say, you know, here's how you make a great organic wine or a great organic farm.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Just be deeply passionate.
Nancy Matsumoto:Yeah. And pay attention.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And pay attention. What are some of your favorite places to drink great sake in North America? So maybe one or two in Toronto. And then if there's somewhere say in New York, like to mention.
Nancy Matsumoto:Yeah. Sakai bar is so wonderful here. What Stu is doing is so personal. Michael has a very big list at Key Modern Japanese. He's the beverage director, but he's also doing a lot for sake education.
Nancy Matsumoto:I love what they're doing at Mel.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Mel is so good.
Nancy Matsumoto:I love it. Yeah. They're a very special couple. Mariko, my friend at Hakugako, has a great bottle shop, and she'll do flights, tastings, and bringing in really the most interesting and cutting edge sakes from Japan. So if you want something really interesting and a great education, I would suggest going to her.
Nancy Matsumoto:So those are just a few places in Toronto. In New York, the old school is Sakagura. Accidental Barn, I love rule of thirds in Brooklyn, and they also have a bottle shop called Bean. Those are
Alex Abbott Boyd:a That's few great list. Final question. If someone wants to support a more sustainable and local food system, they live here in Toronto, what do you think is a single tangible real thing they can do this week?
Nancy Matsumoto:I think it's true wherever you live, you're going to be able to find that alternative food system. Often it starts at the farmer's market. So I would say definitely go out and support your local farmers at your local farmer's market, get to know them, grow your food if possible, buy whole foods when you're at the market and cook at home. If you can't do any of those things, I am a huge fan of food cooperatives. I'm a proud member of Karma co op in the Annex.
Nancy Matsumoto:And I know you were wondering about, for instance, if we want to get strawberries out of season or you want to get avocados and bananas. I feel okay about getting them from Karma because they're getting them from fair trade organizations like Equal Exchange, where you know you're paying that few extra cents per piece of fruit, but it's making a huge difference in the life of the farmer and also in the growing practices. And then also at Karma, there's a huge bin of frozen berries. So all winter, I can get frozen blueberries, frozen strawberries. We try to get organic, but if not, as responsibly sourced as possible.
Nancy Matsumoto:So, are just a few things. Then if you're part of a school or a hospital or an institution, talk to them about local food procurement. The farm to school movement is a huge mover of change and a win win for young people who are still developing, for farmers. Or go to your grocery store and say, Hey, can you stock more local? And maybe give a few leads on farmers who would be willing to participate.
Nancy Matsumoto:There's a lot you can do. So, Get involved in your local food policy council or if you have a slow food chapter in your city. All of those are great too.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Alright. Thank you so much for your time.
Nancy Matsumoto:Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here, Alex.
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