Episode 13
· 50:08
I really love the area, the wine. I also really love to speak with customers because you don't sell champagne. You share a part of of their life. For instance, when you've got direct customers, you don't sell champagne for the wedding of their son. That you share the wedding of their son.
Fabienne Dourdon:And after they come, I will say thank you. And it's something special to produce something, to have a real product, and to share it with people.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Hey, everyone. Welcome to Tasting Notes Toronto. I'm Alex Abbott Boyd. In this episode, I sit down with Fabienne Dordon, owner and winemaker at Champagne Dordon Veillard. I first connected with Fabienne last year.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I was on a hunt for champagne for inside our wine's portfolio. And after tasting with dozens of producers over multiple days, Fabienne's wines were the clear winners. They're elegant, richly flavored wines with real character. And if you're interested in learning more about champagne, the history of the region, as well as the story of one of the region's rising stars, this is an episode for you. Here's my conversation with Fabienne Dordon.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Fabienne, thank you
Alex Abbott Boyd:so much for being here.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yeah. Thank you. Thank you to welcome me.
Alex Abbott Boyd:To get things started, could you share just a little bit about when your family first started growing grapes in the Champagne region?
Fabienne Dourdon:Yes. We found papers that they started 1812. We think that they were wine grower before, but we found that they buy some wine in 1812. And at the beginning, they didn't make champagne. They only drew up drapes and they sell the drapes to the big houses, like the famous one, where it's a chandel or people like this.
Alex Abbott Boyd:What part of Champagne were they located in?
Fabienne Dourdon:Yeah, we are still at the same place. We are located in the Mount Valley. It's around 12 kilometers from Aepernet in the heart of Champagne. And we've got now vines in two village. One in Reyes.
Fabienne Dourdon:It's my father's village. And the other part is in Troisi, seven kilometers from the first one, which is my mother village.
Alex Abbott Boyd:This might be a harder question to answer, but do do you know what the region was like back then when they were starting out? I imagine very different than today.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yes. The region was with far less vineyards. You've got lots of forests and also lots of agriculture. You know, you have vineyards when you cannot have agriculture because for instance, in 1812 or before, it was easier to have wheat than to grow grapes.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Oh, wow.
Fabienne Dourdon:And in the hill, you cannot have wheat. So they plant or it was plant some vineyards. And the grapes were were for poor people. I mean, it was far better to do something else. So it was very different.
Fabienne Dourdon:For instance, the Champagne area now is 33,000 hectares. And in, not so far, but in 1960, it was only 11,000 hectares. Wow. Yeah. So the region was completely different.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Okay. And so you mentioned 1960. Is that around when your family started to to make some wine?
Fabienne Dourdon:Yes. The tribes, they start to make champagne. They always worked with the vine and with as wine groups. But also, the it was necessary to do something else. For instance, my grandfather, he has to work in the vine, but also he has to work to help to reconstruct buildings or bridges because it's it was after the second world war.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yeah. And you cannot, you cannot live with only the production of grapes. Yes. In winter, for instance, he was working in the forest in order to cut trees and to make wood. Okay.
Fabienne Dourdon:So that's very different from now.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. What what was the inspiration to start making wine? Was there a dream to one day make a full living just off the land?
Fabienne Dourdon:I think it's two things. It's dream and reality. The first thing is I think you, it's interesting when you have grapes to say, I want to make the final product. Yeah. But also it's very difficult because when you cut a grape, you can sell it in champagne only two years after.
Fabienne Dourdon:It's better to wait three years. So it means during all these periods, you don't have money with it. So that's why before people only sell grapes and they don't have enough money to have tanks, to have press and to do it. So the reality is that you need to sell your grapes, but after, you have to also have a good balance between you and people who buy the grapes, because they always wanted to buy grapes with a low, very low price. So after you cannot live.
Fabienne Dourdon:And after the second world war, people tried to organize altogether because before, when you've got grapes, if you don't sell it the same day, the grapes are going bad, rotten. You cannot do anything with it. So after the second world war, people were all together and they invest all together in some press or some tanks in order to press the grapes. And then we wanna always know how to keep wine because even Roman people keep wines. So, you know, it's between both.
Fabienne Dourdon:The dream because you want to make your products and the reality because you need to be able to live off your product.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And so is is what you're talking about there the rise of cooperatives?
Fabienne Dourdon:Yes. Cooperative and also independent person, you know, both. Because after, you can also buy your own press. The the problem at the beginning was that people only understand champagne of very famous brand. You know, now lots of people know that small wine brewers like meat can make good products and that it's interesting to have a famous brand and also products from directly from a wine brewer.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yeah. But when you are in the nineties, sixties or fifties, it's different. Yeah. Few people can afford champagne. So when they can afford champagne, when they have money to have champagne, they will not buy a jar or something else.
Fabienne Dourdon:They just buy something very famous. And it was only possible to find also in the shop, famous brands.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Okay. Was sorry. Was it your great grandfather or your grandfather?
Fabienne Dourdon:It's my great grandfather starts, but he make very few champagne. You know, it was really the sort. And after it's my grandfather who product a bit more and then my father. But now we are still we've got 10 hectares and we are still producing half of our production is going to our champagne and half of the production is going for the big houses. And for instance, in champagne, are around 10,000 wine brewers.
Fabienne Dourdon:Only 5,000 make champagne and only 30, I don't know if it's 30 or 70 wine grower who sells 100% of the grapes in their champagne. The others sell grapes and champagne.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. Interesting. So how did how did your grandfather start to find some customers in the early days when everyone just wanted those bigger brands?
Fabienne Dourdon:So at the beginning, you know, as you said champagne to the family or when you've got, for instance, they had family in Paris or other place in France.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah.
Fabienne Dourdon:But it changes. They sell champagne to the friends of the family or, you know, it was just like this. It was not very, I mean, well organized because they don't have time. At this time, you spend 100% of your time in your vine. You work alone and you don't have time to make business.
Fabienne Dourdon:So it's more like this. People just know that there is somebody in the family in champagne who makes champagne.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And when did it start to become more of a business?
Fabienne Dourdon:I think it was in around the sixties, seventies. I've got two grandparents. So one, my grandparents with my mother, they were more businessmen. For instance, my mother always told me that they were very the first one in the village to invest in an answering machine, which is very funny because now we always have our phone with us. But at this time, they it was an investment because it was something expensive.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yeah. It was something very new because once they were in the vine in the vine working, they put this answering machine. Yeah. And they write to the customers. And also they try to, to deliver directly their campaign.
Fabienne Dourdon:And after each year they send the price under letter. For now it's just normal, but at this time, it was something very, very new, and they were nearly the first one in the village to do this.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Wow. That's such a fun story.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yeah. It's it seems to be 300 ago, but it was not so far. Oh,
Alex Abbott Boyd:so were they selling? Where were their consumers located? Was it primarily nearby in
Fabienne Dourdon:Paris? Yes. It was nearby. It was in Paris. It was North Of Paris.
Fabienne Dourdon:You know, a place where you can go with your truck during weekend to deliver your champagne and a place where people can come and pick up the champagne. They never work with South Of France. But when you speak with people, usually it's thanks to the friends and family that first you start to sell champagne somewhere else. And nobody sells champagne abroad.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Okay.
Fabienne Dourdon:Except in Belgium, because we are close to Belgic. Yeah. And people are coming. Are, they love champagne.
Alex Abbott Boyd:They speak French.
Fabienne Dourdon:They speak French. And also it's two or three hours from us. So they came and they buy some champagne. But it was more in the heat cheese also, because before people don't have a lot of money. You know, champagne was really not affordable for people.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yes. That is the the challenge. It's such a lovely wine, but because it takes so much time to make and so much work, I know it's an expensive wine.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yes. That's what I told you. For instance, when you've got a plant, when you've got a new plant, you cannot harvest it before three years. You have to wait three years, but you know, before there is no grape, so it's not a problem to wait. There is nothing to pick up.
Fabienne Dourdon:And after, when you harvest it, you have to wait usually two or three years to have your first bottle. So it's a really long time before you can drink it.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Growing up in the region and seeing your grandparents and parents involved in the business, what are what are some of your memories of of that time and just being among the vines and and and the wine?
Fabienne Dourdon:It was something very normal because all my friends were like me. And now I think the best thing was freedom. You know, we always were in the vine with our bicycle. We always were in the forest. And it's part of me, I think it's normal for me to drink champagne.
Fabienne Dourdon:It's normal to see grapes. And also it's normal to live with the nature. It means that it's normal to wait, when I was young, mid August to go on holidays, because I know in July until mid August, there is lots of work in in the vine. It's normal to have lots and lots of people during ten days before it was last September for the harvest. And all the life is is punctuated by the work in the vineyard.
Alex Abbott Boyd:That sounds like living very, like in touch with the seasons.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yes. Always. And you always speak about it at home and in winter, you know, now there is nearly no frost. But when I was young forty years ago, it was sometime 15 degrees under zero. And we always live with the season thing.
Fabienne Dourdon:Oh, how is it going for the vine? Not for the people,
Alex Abbott Boyd:but
Fabienne Dourdon:how is it for the vine?
Alex Abbott Boyd:Wow. 15 Below. That sounds more like Toronto where I live than than here.
Fabienne Dourdon:But it's not like this now. We we never have we don't have a frost, but it seems as it's still the same thing. For instance, my father always was very upset, not upset. I don't know the name, but he wonder what will happen in May because in May, sometimes you've got frost, not a lot, but the buds are outside in the vine. And if you got something like Miners two, it's very dangerous for the vine.
Fabienne Dourdon:Now it's not my problem because it's nearly never happened. But the problem now is during June and July, the hill, you say hill, when you've got storm from the
Alex Abbott Boyd:No hill. Yeah.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yeah. Hell. Because we've got lots and lots of storm. And when you've got something like this in your vine, it's finished, not for one year. The harvest is done.
Fabienne Dourdon:But also in the vine, you've got the bud for the next year. So it's done for two years. So we always live with the season.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Back when you were growing up today, I know there are some frost mitigation, like you could spray with water, could light small fires. Was there any of that that that they would do?
Fabienne Dourdon:No. Because this cost a lot. And we've got a very we've got lots of chance in Champaign because we've got something which call reserve. It means that every year I cannot cut out all what I want. I mean, I can cut all my grapes.
Fabienne Dourdon:But each year we decide, when I say we, it's the famous houses and the wine groups, decide how many bottles we will produce. So with this, we know how many kilos we need. And we can put in tanks more than what we need. And we can keep in tanks one harvest. So it means we don't have to have all different things.
Fabienne Dourdon:We've got one harvest, more in our cellar. It's kind of insurance. It's our insurance. It's a very nice security.
Alex Abbott Boyd:So did you always know that you'd want to join the family business?
Fabienne Dourdon:No. I went to a business school and I worked during a bit more than ten years in Paris. And I never speak about it. And we never speak about it in my family, which was a very nice thing because there are lots of families where, because you are the first children, you will handle the business, the family business. Sometimes it's very nice because you love it, but some people really do not love it and they have to do it.
Fabienne Dourdon:So we never speak about it. And also the second thing is I am a girl. So before there was nearly no girl, no woman coming to take this business a lot. We never speak with my parents about this. My mother was sure that I will never come back.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Okay. Wow.
Fabienne Dourdon:And my father, I'm sure he always wonder if I will come back, but he never asked me. And since I just start working, I always say, what will I do? Because, you know, I saw my parents, grandparents, great grandparents do this. I really love the area, the vine. I also really love to be with them and speak with customers because you don't sell champagne.
Fabienne Dourdon:You sell a part, you share a part of of their life. For instance, when you've got direct customers, you don't sell champagne for the wedding of their son. That you share the And wedding of their after they come, I will say, thank you. And, you know, it's something special. It's very, I think it's a very nice product because
Alex Abbott Boyd:about human connection.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yes. So I was always helping them when they are going to some show. And also I love the harvest because the harvest is the end of the year. You know, it's all, all your work is now during the harvest. And I love the products, but I never speak about it because I think it's very important to go somewhere else, to work somewhere else, to know if you are able to work, to work with some other people.
Alex Abbott Boyd:It's it's amazing to me that your parents never asked. Do you think that was a very intentional decision on their part? I They wanted to give you the freedom to decide.
Fabienne Dourdon:Think so. Because, you know, we saw around us lots of people who are so sad with their job because they didn't have the choice except coming back. And perhaps it was they want to do or not, but they couldn't decide. I think, yes, they never asked me before just in order to let me free.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Okay. And what what was it that ultimately helped you decide to come back? You know, it's such a different lifestyle. Paris is so much energy, so many great restaurants.
Fabienne Dourdon:I love Paris. I really loved my life in Paris. I've got, and I still have all my friends in Paris. And one day when I was, it was my birthday, I was 32. And my father started, he was 14 in the vine.
Fabienne Dourdon:So he told me in four or five years, I can retire because if nobody come back, you know, you have to think about the business. And he said, so we are thinking with the counter, what we can do. Perhaps we can have somebody who come and manage the business. And he told me, except if you want to come back. And I said, it's now I have to really think about it.
Fabienne Dourdon:But it took me around nine months to answer them because I love Paris. I had a flat in the center of Paris and I have to go in the center of my village of 300 inhabitants. And also, I know that when you come back, you are a child. I was independent. I was 32.
Fabienne Dourdon:And if I come back, I will be the child of my father and my mother. It's not the same thing. So I, I try to find the answer. You know, I I put some I take a paper saying what is positive, what is negative. I didn't find.
Fabienne Dourdon:And one day I say, okay, if I do not do it, and I say, I know it's not possible. If I do not do it all my life, I will regret it. So I say, okay, I come back. But it was really difficult. What
Alex Abbott Boyd:what were some of your biggest hopes and and even fears with making that job back home?
Fabienne Dourdon:The fear was not to be able to continue because in my life in Paris, I changed three times of job in ten years. And the fear is, you know, when you don't like a job, you can quit. And it's your problem. Yeah. When you handle a family business, if you don't like it, you can quit.
Fabienne Dourdon:But it's not the same thing because you've got your parents, your grandparents, you've got it's it's kind of pressure. How do you say it? You know, it's something very Yeah. On your shoulders. So it's not easy.
Fabienne Dourdon:So this was my fear. And after you have to, to be in a small village, you have to the life is completely different. So it was not so easy to come back.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And when she made that decision, did you enroll to study viticulture or winemaking or how did you get ready to take over?
Fabienne Dourdon:When I came back, I I know a lot of things because, you know, I always worked sometime with my parents. So there's a lot of things I know. I did a business school and I was working in business and marketing. So this was easy for me. Yeah.
Fabienne Dourdon:And I went back to school for one year for vinification and all the work in the vine. And my father helped me a lot saying what he was doing, but I wanted to know, you know, that's the way you are doing it, the way your father is doing it. And you wanted to know what is the right way or the more objective way.
Alex Abbott Boyd:It's just fact checking that yeah. Yeah.
Fabienne Dourdon:So I I went back to school one year. How has
Alex Abbott Boyd:your approach to viticulture or winemaking evolved? Or how I guess, how did you evolve it once you joined the family company?
Fabienne Dourdon:I think a big, a very important chance is that my parents, my father, it's my father who was working in in the valley. He was very open minded. And for instance, in my village, there were lots of experience for a new way of working in the vine. For instance, before you were a very good wine grower. If you got lots of grapes and if the vine was with no grass and nothing.
Fabienne Dourdon:Now it's changed a lot because you are looking for something far more sustainable. And so the way to conduct the vine has changed. And in my village, we had an engineer during all the year for three years coming and helping people or giving advice to try and test new way of working. So it was very interesting for me because people were very open minded about this. And in thirty during thirty years, if I look back, it has changed a lot.
Fabienne Dourdon:We completely changed the way of working in the vine. I mean, not when you prune or not when you harvest, it's the same thing, you know, but the way you think about the vine and the way you think, when you use less product, it's far better. Before, for my grandfather, it was different. You know, they, they just, first they had their horse and their hand, and when they find that you can have product to help you, it was just different and something so easier for them to work. But now you change a lot.
Fabienne Dourdon:You, you let grass on, in the vine in order not to put some pesticides. You try to have more, organic products. And also there is a kind of combat. You use manual work
Alex Abbott Boyd:a lot. And what effect do you think that has on the quality of the wine?
Fabienne Dourdon:It's two things different. I mean, you know, it's not because it's biological that it's better. The taste is better. It's better for you. It's better for the environment, but the taste, it's something else.
Fabienne Dourdon:The thing also is that before we want to product and to product, But now we know that if you product a lot, the taste is not so good. Yeah. If you've got less grapes, you will have more sugar and the concentration of the taste will be better. So, you know, you've got both because you use manual works, less products, you product a bit less. And the drapes, of course, have more quality.
Alex Abbott Boyd:You mentioned to me that when you took over, you wanted to evolve the estate without ever betraying the soul of the wines. How would you describe what is the soul of Champagne Dordon Veillard?
Fabienne Dourdon:In my area, we've got very rich soil with shalk and clay, and we make very fruity champagne. And I wanted to keep this because it's something very easy to drink,
Alex Abbott Boyd:but
Fabienne Dourdon:I want to have something fruity and elegant. You know, you need both. Something easy to drink, you can share, you can have to your different event, but also something very delicate and very elegant. And I, try to keep this, something you can share with everybody. Everybody can drink it, but it has to be something high quality and very elegant.
Alex Abbott Boyd:How do you think about achieving that? What what did you do differently in order to achieve that?
Fabienne Dourdon:What we do differently is the way, for instance, we work in the cellars. It means the first thing was the press, but it's not me. It's thirty, forty years ago. The press has changed, and we understand that the thing to have very good champagne is to have a very good press, and also is to cut the grape and go to the press quickly. You know, for instance, with my grandparents, you cut the grapes and you wait, you have to wait in order to have enough grapes and they cut during day and they press during night.
Fabienne Dourdon:So when you cut at seven in the morning, it goes to the press perhaps at seven in the evening. Now we know that it's better when you cut it to go directly to the press. The quality is far better. And this part is very important for the quality. And also, all the tanks, everything is regulated with cold in order.
Fabienne Dourdon:When it's too hot, it gives you something very strong and it will, you will lose some elegance. So also this has changed. And for now, we use more and more vine with normal lactate
Alex Abbott Boyd:in
Fabienne Dourdon:order to keep the acidity. Because the taste of people has changed. They like when they've got something a bit more acid, but, you know, with a bit more acidity. Fresh. A bit more fresh.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yes. And also the weather has changed. Before when I was younger, we make the harvest last September. Now it's usually at the September or sometime in August. So we need to keep freshness.
Fabienne Dourdon:We change the way to work with the grapes.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Does that affect the dosage too?
Fabienne Dourdon:So dosage has changed a lot. When I came back, my parents make a lot of the mistake. The mistake is more than thirty five gram per liter of sugar. Because for two things, people like when there is sugar. Yeah.
Fabienne Dourdon:And also they drink champagne at the end of the meal with the dessert. Now they usually have it for aperitif or sometime when they eat. Yeah. So now I sell a lot of extra voids with less dosage. And like this, you really taste and smell the vine.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. Is is it purely the evolving taste, or is it also as the climate is warmed and acid levels have maybe come down a bit, you don't need as much sugar to balance? Or or is
Alex Abbott Boyd:it just taste?
Fabienne Dourdon:Can't leave it there. Yeah. It's both, but not for the reasons you're telling me. Because before, we add sugar at, know, at the first fermentation. For champagne, you need to have 12 degree at the end.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yeah. And you take one degree per fermentation. So as we've got two fermentation, you have to have grapes which are around 10 degree. So it's not degree. Of course, there is no alcohol in grapes, but you have to have sugar.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yeah. And when I was younger, sometimes we've got grapes with eight degree. So you were allowed to put sugar in the tanks in order to have 10 degree and 11 after the first fermentation. Now we always have around nine and a half or 10 degrees naturally. So we don't add sugar first.
Fabienne Dourdon:The sugar we are speaking of for extra buds is the sugar we add at the end when we disgorge. Now I think the taste of people has changed. They like when it's a bit more fresh, but also as we have more sugar, as grapes is more fruity, you don't have to, to put a lot of sugar at the end.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. So you've got both reasons. That makes sense. You know, you mentioned when talking about kind of the soul of of your wines, the inherent fruitiness that comes from the area. Yeah.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And I know that Meunier is often associated with this this fruitiness that it can bring to wines, and the Martin Valley is where it is grown the most. Yep. I I guess Meunier has a little bit of a bad reputation, I would say, as as less serious than Pinot Noir and Chardonnay. Do you think do you think that's true? Do you think that's fair?
Fabienne Dourdon:Of course, I think it's not true and not fair. But there are some different reason for this. First, the Monet is not famous in the world. I mean, you've got Monet in champagne in South Africa, but not over the world. Chardonnay, you can find it everywhere.
Fabienne Dourdon:So it's easy for people to remember and to know Chardonnay. And also, Pinomagnet was more difficult to work with when you don't have everything to work with. I mean, there are sixty years ago, you don't have regulation in the cellars. You don't have the same press. You don't work the same way.
Fabienne Dourdon:So it was fruity, but it goes, you cannot keep it keep it a long time compared to the Chardonnay. Now it's not true because we make lots and lots of evolution in the way to to work, and there were lots of technological evolution. So it's not a problem. When you keep the pinot meunier, you can have something fruity and fresh. So it's not a problem.
Fabienne Dourdon:And in champagne, one third of the grapes are pinot meunier, nobody throws them away for a long time. And also it was not fashionable, but now it's, since five or ten years, it comes more fashionable. I mean, I think journalists just discover these grapes and they speak about it. It's still not as famous as Chardonnay, but even the famous brand, now they say they've got some Pinot Meunier in their bottle, but they always had Pinot Meunier in their bottles because we always sell them Pinot Meunier and they use it.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Well, yeah, I love your L'Ensemboise Yeah. Which is 100% Monet, a 100% barrel fermented. It's so gastronomic. It's just a a beautiful wine. What was your inspiration there?
Alex Abbott Boyd:How long have you been making it?
Fabienne Dourdon:The thing is I would like to have something very gastronomic. I had one with Pinot Noir and Pinot Meunet. And the first one I had we make was in 1994. At this time, we we were very shy and we didn't do a 100% Pinot Meunier because just what we said before, everybody thinks that Pinot Meunier was not able to age. So we don't do it.
Fabienne Dourdon:But now we know it's different and you can do something very, very interesting with only Pinot Meunier. So I wanted to do a 100% Pinot Meunier. And also I wanted to have something very gastronomic and something else. And with the barrel, you can have some taste, very different, like, tobacco taste or vanilla. I don't like when you've got the wood very pronounced, but I love when you've got this kind of aromas mixed with the fruity of the pinot meunier.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yeah. So that's why we decide to to try to make it in barrel. And also, we wanted something fresh at the same time because fruitiness, vanilla, tobacco has to be fresh if you want to drink one glass, a second glass, and to to have something nice. So that's also why we decided to do it with normal alactic in order to keep also the acidity. So we tried during two or three years because it's working with oak is not used, is not something very natural for me.
Fabienne Dourdon:You know, it's something new and you have to find a very good balance between old cork and also new ones. If you use new ones, you will have the wood, but it's not very delicate. So you have to find the balance between coke or barrels, which are two, three, four years.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Are you using bariques or larger barrels?
Fabienne Dourdon:Yes. Barique.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Okay.
Fabienne Dourdon:And we use also, I don't know the name in English. It's we say it a double kind of double fire, you know, to make the barrel, you put a fire in the middle and you can do it once or twice and you will not have the same aromas. And I think if you do it twice, the aromas are more more round. It's the harmony is better with our champagne.
Alex Abbott Boyd:That's great. I think I think I told you most of what was in the last order went straight to a two star restaurant in Ontario. They loved
Fabienne Dourdon:it. He told me. I was very proud of it.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Could you share a little of the story of Le Reserve de Germain? Sorry. Did I say that right?
Fabienne Dourdon:Yeah. Reserve de Germain.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. It's it's quickly becoming one of my more popular wines.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yeah. This one also is a very is a second champagne we made. The first one was one with only Pinot Noir and Pinot Meunier. This one is a second. At the beginning and to start, it was very original in my area because it's mostly with Chardonnay, with no malolactic, and Pinot Noir.
Fabienne Dourdon:It means no Pinot Meunier, and we are in the area of Pinot Meunier. And the the thing is our Chardonnay are very delicate, are very floral. We are not on lots of mineral seeds, but you've got lots of white flowers.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Mhmm.
Fabienne Dourdon:And with the we don't make the malolactic also on this one in order to have also citrus aroma. And with the pinot noir, it brings some strength. So it's very interesting because it's fresh, elegant, but also at the end,
Alex Abbott Boyd:you have got something a bit full bodied. You aged for four years?
Fabienne Dourdon:Yes. Because as you've got Chardonnay with no malolactic, think it has to be aged a bit more in order you have something not aggressive, Something very and you said smooth? Something yes. Very creamy and more smooth.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I love it. Just that extra aging just gives it a little bit more maturity than most wines in that price point. It's it's so lovely. No. Globally, people are drinking less wine.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yes. I'd be curious. Is this affecting champagne?
Fabienne Dourdon:It has not a lot of effect on champagne because people drink less, but they drink better, you know, and you you are usually not drunk every day with champagne. So, and champagne is still a wine for a very big occasion for fast, or when you are going in a very nice restaurant, you do not drink, except in my area, you don't drink champagne every day. So this, when people drink less wine, it's not a problem for champagne. But the problem with that now, and I don't know if it's temporarily or if it will continue, is that very young people don't drink alcohol at all.
Alex Abbott Boyd:What do you think we can do about that? When you hear the youngest generation talk about what they value, it's authenticity, it's transparency, it's something that's natural. You would think that that means wine should be right there, but but for whatever reason, it's not. Do you think we're all, like, in the business failing to tell the story correctly to them?
Fabienne Dourdon:I don't know. And I was wondering what to do and what to say because, know, there are people who are looking for, I don't know the name in English, but wine with no alcohol. And also the same person are looking for something very natural, very sustainable. And wine without alcohol is the contrary. So I really don't know what to answer because for me, it's two things completely different.
Fabienne Dourdon:It's your position and it's something new. So you just can not wait and see. It's very difficult. The only thing is I'm sure that you have to explain people what you do and how you work and and that it's like everything. If you drink a bottle of champagne every day, it's too, too much, but it's also part of a place or, you know, drinking, even in France, drinking, eating something very, very nice, going to a very good restaurant.
Fabienne Dourdon:It's something very important and you cannot replace it with a computer with other things. So I keep hoping that we will find a balance to everything. On that point, I really
Alex Abbott Boyd:think champagne, I wish more people would think of it as as a wine to drink on a Tuesday or a Wednesday rather than just for the celebration and a great restaurant. I find, you know, if I've had a great day or even if I've had a bad like, I've had a great day, but it's just a a normal workday, it can be a lovely way to end the day with my wife. And if I've had a bad day, they can suddenly make it a good day. So I view it as a, as an everyday wine. What are your thoughts on
Fabienne Dourdon:that? I think you're true. And it's what we do because we are producers. So, you know, we'd, we, you say it's not a necessity to have something very important to, celebrate. And also, I think champagne is also quite affordable.
Fabienne Dourdon:You can have champagne when you don't have a very big fest just to share with somebody you like or you love. It's you will have a nice a nice moment with it.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah.
Fabienne Dourdon:Just like when you have something very good to to eat. It's the same thing.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. Well, it's I mean, in in our market in Ontario, I would say, like, the price of one of your champagnes, which I think is is excellent quality, is the same as, say, an entry level village bergand. So it's like, if I wanna make a a normal day just a little bit special, do I wanna drink the lowest level of burgundy or an excellent bottle of champagne? You know what?
Fabienne Dourdon:No. I've got the answer. But no. That's true. Now you can, I think, have a very good champagne?
Fabienne Dourdon:And I think mine is very, very nice. And you don't need to spend a lot of money to have this very good moment with someone.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Might have touched a little bit on this, but for some people who are listening who are a little bit newer to drinking champagne from growers like you and they're more used to those big brands, how would you encourage them to continue exploring that world?
Fabienne Dourdon:I think they have to try a lot of different champagne because the big difference between a famous brand and a wine brewer, except the name, the price and everything, is when you drink a wine from a wine drawer, it looks like it's area, it's terroir. And, you know, we always speak about champagne, but there are lots and lots of different champagne. Some are very fresh. Some are for gastronomy. Some are very intense.
Fabienne Dourdon:You've got plenty of different champagne. So it's interesting to taste difference
Alex Abbott Boyd:Taste like
Fabienne Dourdon:because you will love some, you will perhaps less appreciate some of them, and also you will find some champagne for different occasion. For instance, you've got some champagne which are very nice for aperitif and some when, when people ask me what is my favorite champagne in my range, I cannot answer. I say, it depends who are drinking with me and the periods. For instance, in winter near the chimney, I will have something a bit more full bodied, like perhaps, l'estemboise. You know, you just have to drink it with, some brioche or something like this.
Fabienne Dourdon:And in summer, of course, I will perhaps have something completely different. So I just tell them to to try champagne from wine brewer and just also trust them. People always told me, you know, I'm not, I don't know anything about champagne. So they don't, they don't trust their taste. When you eat a piece of cake, for instance, you don't say, I'm not an expert in cake, so I cannot know what, if it's good or not.
Fabienne Dourdon:And it's the same thing for wine. It's the same thing for champagne. You like it or you don't like it. I mean, you don't have to, to be an expert and to say, I can't spell this and this and this. No.
Fabienne Dourdon:Just you have to say, this is very interesting, or I discover something new, or I like this. So I just say, drink and I taste
Alex Abbott Boyd:love that. I found with Gourish champagne, to your point, there's just so much more uniqueness, so many more wines with different personalities. And you might love one and not like some. Yeah. But if you explore, you'll find something that you absolutely love because there's such a range.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Whereas I think I think the fact that really struck me was that the Vouve Clicquot makes 15,000,000 bottles a year Yep. Of their of their most popular wine. And how could you possibly have personality across 15,000,000 bottles?
Fabienne Dourdon:Yeah. But I think also it's for people, it's easier, for instance, to drink this kind of wine because they say, as we produce 15 millions, it means that lots of people love it. So this is a real taste of champagne. So I should like this, you know? That's why I say you have to trust your taste.
Fabienne Dourdon:For instance, I always say to my customers that I don't like Dom Perignon. It doesn't mean that Dom Perignon is not a good champagne. It's a very great champagne, but it's not my taste. And there is no problem with it. It's or I give the example, for instance, if you don't like a cake with coffee, does it mean that the cake is not good?
Alex Abbott Boyd:No, it's just, if you
Fabienne Dourdon:prefer chocolate, It's not a problem. It's the same thing with the wine. But people, when they drink wine or champagne, they they don't have they cannot say, I don't like very much this or I prefer this. They said, my taste is not good and I don't know anything about it. It's very strange.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. Yeah. Blame the blame the wine as not being for you, not for yourself. Yeah. You mentioned Dom Perignon.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Are there any of the big brands that did inspire you or any of their wines that that you or or even more broader, are there any any other just champagnes across the region, grower or large brand that that were inspirations when you were getting started?
Fabienne Dourdon:Yes. I'm not I mean, when I came back, you know, so it's more than twenty years now. I was used to drink only my champagne or the champagne of my area. So the the taste I was used to was very fruity champagne, very full bodied champagne. And, of course, when you come back, you meet lots of people.
Fabienne Dourdon:When you are with wine grower, you are speaking about your champagne and you you taste this champagne of other people.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And
Fabienne Dourdon:at the beginning, I thought, for instance, the champagne of Cote D'Iblon, which was very, very, very fresh, very mineral. I was totally disappointed with it because it's completely different of my champagne and of what I am used to taste. And now I, I change. I I like when it has fruity. I love this.
Fabienne Dourdon:But also I want to have some fresh, a lot of freshness because I think it's nice to have the food first and after to have freshness, something very elegant, very delicate. And it's completely different than when I came back. And even when I have some very full bodied champagne, for instance, when you eat something, I need to add this freshness at the end.
Alex Abbott Boyd:That makes sense. You know, know it's a family business. Yep. So I I'd be curious, is the next generation already involved? I know your kids are quite young.
Fabienne Dourdon:Yes. There are two things. They are eight and 10. So they are involved because they just, just like me, they are going to do bicycle in the vine. They love this period, which is the harvest.
Fabienne Dourdon:But just like my parents, I will never tell them to come I will never tell them not to come back. I just want them to be completely free. And I think if if you love what you do, and if you show that you are happy in what you are doing, it was the example I had of my family. Perhaps somewhere in your page, you said, and what about me? But I will never ask my children to come back.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Do you hope that they will though? Won't listen to this, don't watch me.
Fabienne Dourdon:I don't know actually, because you never know, you know, what happened. I mean, it's, it's difficult. It's a difficult world. It's a difficult work. It's more and more difficult to find people to work with you.
Fabienne Dourdon:And we've got more and more administrative papers. This part is, is not very interesting. I think it's also so nice to produce something, you know, to, to have a real product and to share it with people. And I hope not perhaps they will come back, but I hope they will find something like this. And I came back also because when I was with my parents in a show, for instance, when somebody told me, oh, I love your champagne and I use it for my wedding and for the birth of my children.
Fabienne Dourdon:You know, it's something very inside you said. It's a very good, very nice compliment. And I hope they will have this. They will find it, but I just want them to be happy. Okay.
Alex Abbott Boyd:No, that that makes sense. That's what we all want for our children. Yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to say or add?
Fabienne Dourdon:No, just I hope people will enjoy my champions. They will taste them and I hope it will continue, and we will make up continue to make lots of efforts to have these good products.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Well, thank you so much for your time.
Fabienne Dourdon:Thank you very much.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Thank you all so much for listening. If you've been enjoying the show, a quick rating or review really goes a long way and helps so much more than you'd think. Until next time. Cheers.
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